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Further discussion on the type of engine
necessary far the Hills line took place at a
meeting of the Railways Standing Commit
tee at Parliament House on Tuesday. Mr.
B, I'.. Bush ton (Ohief Mechanical Engineer)
gave evidence with respect to conferences
and communications in regard bo the Gar
ia-tt and other types of engines. There
were present:—Messrs. W. A- Robinson
(chairman), A. von Doussa, J. Jelley, J.
Gunn, and R. D. Nicholls. ,
The Chairman—I understand that you
made a request that you would, like to
; give evidence an regard to the Hills line.
| .Mr.' Rushton—Yes. Mr. Chairman. As
|I indicated on the last occasion that I
was before, this Committee, the whole mat
ter of the new typo of locomotive ha*
been discussed with the Railways Commis
sioner in connection with my memoran
dum of (July 19, 1920. When this discus
sion tooK place it was an exceedingly
memorable one.
i; Mr. G-unn—What discussion are you re
ferring to?—-The discussion on the consoli
dated type of engine. I understand the
receipt of the communication in connection
with that was repudiated.. They have no
record in the office of having received it
together with the diagram of the locomo
tive which I submitted! The memorandum
and diagram were personally handed by-me
to Mr. McGuire and discussed on the spot. ■
In view of the fact that the Garratt or
articulated locomotive had been turned
down by tbe Commissioners' Conference,
that was our next) best, proposition. j
The Chairman—Have you any evidence
to bring 'before the committee as to the
condemnation of the. Garratt engine by the ,
conference of Commissioners?—Only the
recommendation of the conference. held in
Melbourne in 1920, which was approved by
the Commissioners, of which Mr. McGuire
was chairman. . . .
"A Memorable Occasion."
Mr. Gunn—In that correspondence you
handed to the Commissioner," you referred -
to a copy of Mr. Sincock's letter and also
item. 3, which-you were asked to answer.
From whom did you get. a copy of that
letter?—From the Railways Commissioner.
The occasion was a memorable one, and
should be 'fixed on the mind of any reason
able man.- It was on that occasion that
I put to him what I had been Working out,
and how I had gone to a great deal of ;
trouble in framing a report! having gone '
over tine 'country, on a new line to Mur
ray Bridge with lesser-grades/: so that the
'Stotey-railwaye.vba'-ttmt'Hsedtiair-"cotdd be',
worked, with. a great deal more economy'
than possible over the existing line. 'That
was forced on to 'his mind. I advised Mr.
McGuire. I had. all my particulars ready
and a report would be formulated. ' On
the following Monday the statement was
handed to the Railways Commissioner.
That is the crux of the ' whole
.question. • Looking at it from i
'a national standpoint we do not want t° j
'look at the present, as the traffic is bound
to grow on account of the extreme settle
ment on the Murray^ and it is necessary to
r'tm this traffic economically, whether to
Port Adelaide or .Victor Harbor. My
scheme has the advantage of having a
connection between Monarto South and
•Strathalbyn which would provide a con
nection with a southern, port. That -was
the suggestion which I put to Air. Mc
Guire, and I have no hesitation in saying
that ij; was one of the most valuable ever
given' by on officer oi the department to'
his Commissioner. 'I am supported in that
by Dr. Maiwson's recent .letter to the
press. As a further proof that what I
say is correct, I. might add that, when I
appeared before this Commission with
Air: 'Welbourn, an elaborate, plan was
shown of certain alterations to the line
between Aldgale and Mount 'Lofty.. If
the suggestion which •! had! made had not
been ."before Mr. AIcGuire. who supplied
the authority for making the survey and
that elaborate plan submitted? The thing
dovetails in so easily. - ' Certain instruc
tions were issued with the object of trying
to improve the line,, and that was the re
sult of my suggestion, and the conference
•which .took place between the Commis
sioner and myself when I handed him the
diagram on July 19.
Air. Gunn—Do you know when the sur
vey was matte?—I do mot know.
Was it subsequent to your conference?—
That I could not tell you.
Air. Jelley—Would it not be possible
that you gave the 'Commissioner informa
tion concerning a new route and not the
other information you spoke of?—I gave
him all the information I possibly, could
as regards the engine and the improvement
in', the line. As a further instance that
theCommissioner received it and acted on
it .is this, last Tuesday morning before this
committee assembled there was a meet
ing of officers in the Railways Commis
sioner's office, and' the Chief Engineer pro
duced a boot with tracings of .three de
signs of locos. One was the A2 which
I recommended, the other a class T (a Hew
South Wales goods engine), and when the
third: leaf was turned over I said, "That
is the consolidated' loco." • That tracing
was evidently made from my diagram, be
cause it could not have been done from
any other source.
That was produced by the Chief En
gineer?—-Yes.
Would he be in a position to understand
that the diagrams' of those engines
would necessitate the lengthening of the
curves?—Undoubtedly; ot straighten them
out.
How would he know that it would he
more difficult for those engines to nego
tiate a sweep than the RN. -engine, unless
you told him?—I diseussid the matter
with Mr. Stephen previous to .my memo
randum of July 19.
Mr." Stephen should have been cogni-'
sant of all the work necessary?—Yes.
Can'you understand an engineer who
gives an estimate for making a road fit
for hauling twice the load not malting the
necessary provision for straightening out
the curves?—That is a point I cannot un
derstand. It is beyond me.
The* Curves' Questran.
Mr. Gunn drew witness' atention to. the
foil-owing sentence in his memorandum
"I dismissed this matter with -the Acting
Chief Engineer a few days ago, as 'he is
making a report on the same subject. This
engine, provided various stations which are
now on' curves, and one or two of the 10
chain reverse curves, were to be improved,
so as to give ample clearance and reduce
the severe friction,' will be capable of
hauling the Melbourne express singly, and
as a gbods will haul 380 Ions' lead behind
thq tender." I understand' -there are
about 31 10-cliain curves on the HiHs line.
Would it he necessary- for the whole of
them to be straightened?—It would not
be absolutely necessary for all of them to
be lengthened, but most of them, particu
larly those between Belair ' and Mount
Lofty. '
The curves have never (been discussed by
you with the .Commissioner?—Yes, un
doubtedly they have.
Is there any record in writing?—No.
You would not expect the Commissioner
to get from that that you wanted the ma
jority of the curves straightened?—No, I
only asked for two or three to be straigh
tened. and I specially instanced those be
tween Belair and Alount Lofty, which is the
worst seetion of the lino between Adelaide
and Alurray Bridge.
You said juefc now that the majority
would "want lengthening?—'I did not say
that: you said it. ' -
•Well, will they?—iNo. '
Then you have never gone, into the mat
ter?—It is not a "matter for me. It is a
matter for the chief 'engineer, and I can
not interfere with his'work-. . _
Is it not the duty of the Chief Mechani
cal Engineer to advise -the Commissioner
as to the nature of the track and the pecu
liar type of engine it necessitates?—That
has been discussed. ■
You do not know, how many curves
uould require altering?—-That is a matter
for the chief engineer. .
Would not he have to ask you?—-Not
necessarily.
Why do you mention one or two ten
I chain curves if it is not your duty to
! advise the nature of the track?—He knows
! the nature of the track as well as I do.
You consider your duty is to des:gn the
I type of locomotive necessary?—When I
have done that I consider my ■' duty is
done. -
. Discussion with Commissioner.
_ The vhole of the ihiprovements are not
included in the memorandum?—Most of
them. They are also - included in my
memorandum of June 1 of this year. From
the evidence before the Committee it
seems the whole question of. these .curves
has never been, thoroughly gone into?—So
far as I am concerned, yes.
Can you tell us when .and where?—My
duty has ended when ! bring the matter
under the notice of the Railways Commis
sioner, wliich I have done on more than'
one occasion.
| In conference?—When discussing the line
with the present and the late Commis
sioner.
Does any record exist of those recom
mendations?—That is more than I can
say. Many • things are discussed verbally
of which there is no record. The South,
line has b?en a bone of contention for |
years and years.
The witness, continuing, said he wished
to give the history of the Garratt type of
engine. He said many years ago the ques-'
tion of a locomotive, for the Swath line
came up for discussion between the ex
Kailwuys Commissioner (Mr. A. B. Mon
crieff) and himself, and as a result he ob
tained all the latest information from Eng
land as to that particular type. They,
Were not altogether satisfied at the close
of the Parliamentary session before the
war. • . ■
The Chairman—Recprds show the first
year you went into this was in 1912.—It
.was before the war. It was arranged be
tween .the; RMiy^yh,.'C!(i^nienohgc>nd my
caslr'i+.'finh t.ViP vrfrinryof T^irlinmAnf. or
self that on the rising of Parliament
about Christmas time that we should pay
a visit to Tasmania for the purpose
of looking into the question. of
the ' running and maintenance, and
all the particulars we could obtain in
connection with the Garratt loco., withi a
view to its introduction on'the Hills line. [
That trip, however, did not eventuate.
The Garratt Engine.
You have not seed the Garratt engine?—
The matter was listed for consideration by
Queensland at the officers' conference.
Certain information was obtained, and it
was decided that further consideration of
the question should stand over until the
next conference. The war intervened, and
there was no further conference until'18201
In the meantime—in the latter part of
1919—1 paid a visit to Tasmania, for the
purpose of looking into the entire ques
tion, and when I returned T felt satisfied
that the Garratt or any articulated loco,
was not suitable for our requirements. The
matter came on subsequently, and was dis
posed of 'by the officers' conference ih.1920.
In view of this fact, and. on the confirma
tion of the officers' reeom.mcndation by the
Railways Commissioners in conference, the
whole aspect of a loco, for the South line
had to be reviewed, and that is what led
to my obtaining full information as to the
work and performance of what . is un
doubtedly the finest engine of British de
sign—the consolidated engine used in Vic
toria, There is nothing to approach it in
England or on the Continent. The con
clusion arrived at was that that was the
type for use on the Hills line. Hence my
recommendation. I explained this to
the Railways Commissioner,- and he.
was evidently seized with the facts.
When this 'was going on, and not long
after the present Railways Commissioner
assumed offioe, I went" into the question
as to whether the Clas3 T (N.S.W. goods
engine) wonld not be a suitable one for
running over the Hills line in connection
both with the passenger and the goods
traffic, as it must be borne ill mind that
whatever engine is designed for the Hills
line must be capable of dealing .with pas
senger and goods work—a combination
similar to our RX. ..After making ex
haustive enquiries it was -condlnded, after
the magnificent results that were being
obtained in Victoria from the consolidated
engine, that that was the one which
'should be adopted for working out traffic
on the Hi-fis line. Hence my recommen
dation and discussion -with the'Railways
Commissioner on this point. '
The,Chairman—■Will you tell Us why you
advised the A2 as .a passenger and the
consolidated as a freight engine?—The pas
senger engine was for runnmg when trade
developed sufficiently cm the north line and
the line to Port Augusta went through,
and last, for running the express from
Murray Bridge to Serviceton, to save
double-heading, winch has beon"going on
for years and years..
And a consolidated engine for goods and.
passenger traffic?—Yes.
Mr. Jelley—iWould you have to streng
then the Murray-bridge to1 carry it?—Un
doubtedly. There is a difficulty in .work
ing -now between Murray Bridge and
Tailem Bend. The increase in traffic has
been held up for reasons, and one is the
want of 'better oormnunioation between
those two and the slowing down going over
Murray-bridge.' ■ I made a, ■recoenmendation
to the Commissioner to improve that and
get over the difficulty for all time. It is a
well-known fact that 'tihere has been little
or no trouble on the bridge over the river
proper, but there has always .been a sink
ing of the bridge over the swamp. The
proper method of dealing with that aspect
is "to improve the line between the eastern
end of the bridge over the river and turn to
the right, filling in over the swamp and
making a new line to Monteith, avoiding
those sharp curves and the bill-climbing
there is east of the bridge. For eoo-nomi
cal reasons and for good working the line
between the eastern side of Murray-bridge
should be duplicated. That is the sugges
tion I have made to the Railways Commis
sioner. At the Railway Conference in
1920, Mr. Evans, dhief mechanical engineer
of WA, was present when the condemna
tion of the Garratt engine was unanimous.
Mr. Gunn—You recommended Die Gar
ratt engine, did you not?—I recommended
it on the information we were able to
glean at the time. That was in 1912 or
1913. The witness said Tasmania had cope
to the same conclusion as he had since
then, because the Government had ordered
ten new locos, and. did not include the
Garratt for passenger or goods, and the
S_4. hills line was far more difficult than
any in Tasmania.
Cost of Straightening Curves.
The witness was questioned as to the
Cost of straightening the curves on the
Hills line, and he said they could . b"
(Continued on Page 2.)

(Continued from Page 1.)

straightened, where necessary, at a mini
mum cost. ' • \.

- The Chairman—Mr. Wellbourn; says it
yoif " straighten the curves Rf will prac
tically mean putting in a neiv^lneiarid new
tumiels.?—Nothing of the kind.. The thing
is very simple. .

'Mir. Gunn—He said he could not give us
an. estimate within-£100,000.... ■

Mr.^Jellew—The-.Chief Engineer him'selr
said iti would cost , a million or money to
do. this.work?—There arc always two •ways
oi'"doing; a. thing,,expensive, or not.

; The.'witness said the Port Pirie line was
a series of seven to eight chain curves in
a grade of practically one in 100. The
load was limited because the engines were
cut to ribbons, aiid out of a set of wheels
they got ho. more than 25,000 miles. The
line was regraded and some of those sharp
curves eliminated. It was laid at one in
80, which was a very different thing to one
in 100, and yet they were able to increase
the .load by 30 per cent. What, applied
th-the Port Pirie line applied to the Hills
liiier- to-day,- without vine:-alteration of a
Sphtaiy;"tunnel:r -/There-was nothing to
proven t-manyvof • those• curves, which were
practically of'the reverse description being
altered so chat the. line would be almost
straight. That would increase the grade
to .about one in 40, but the straight line
would be; .much ecisier for the Ipeo. -

-Mr. Gunn1 quoted from the witness" re
commendations: .in. reference to the Gar
ratfr engine-bet ween' *1912 and: 1919. He
said -the -witness- had-recommended ■ it in
1912,. was against "it in; 1913, recommended
iti in -1919,- and • was now "against it, and
asked him to explain his various-opinions.

• The witness,said as one grew okler,one
altered one's- opinions, and ads latest opin
ion- was the' Insult of further enquiries.
""7-fTT.J' "■ ,,;'An 'Old Policy. ,

ri'In reply .to Mr. Jelley,tbe witness said
the ,-streiigthening.-of the Hills line was
SO lS..-rails.was part-of the pokey adopted
about 13 yeahs ago. It was necessary
in-the best-interests of the bjg stock they
were using....: ■ ;

The Chairman—Does not ,the fact remain
that if you had put oh a Garratt engine
on a 60-lb. rail you cotdd1 have hauled a
3S0-ton -load without strengthening, the line
at"all?—Before answering thait jquestion I
would like to see the ^papers.. 1 know it
is. a fact.. We examined Mr. Evans in
YV.A. in June,, 1920, 'which was after the
imnfereh.ee, *5hrid he said- the Garrett en
gine was very fine.. It hauled the same
load over a 45-1b. rail as his heaviest -en
gine hauled over a 60-lb. raiL

'. When" you put two RX. engines on that
lihe do you haul 380 tons?—It is not per
mitted. We haul and push that load.

.'Mr. . Rushton said they had an engine
wlueh Could haul a 100-ton load, but cer
tain improvements wore 'needed in the line.
Thisfe was plenty of no cm in the tunnels.
In view of the heavy cost of new locos,
and the growing traffic, it would.he abso
lutely necessary to duplicate the -line. The
"most economical course in. the interest of

the State Was to allow the existing line to

be relaid as originally intended with a 60-,

111 rail • . RIwmVU Vim -

lb. rail, i Should that fail, consideration

ought to he given to the importance of
installing a new line from Monarto to

Brighton. It was essential that the pre-j

sent needs should hot be considered so!
much as those of the future.^ It was ac

knowledged -tliat the South line working ]
was ruinous, to the State, and -was no doubt

a millstone in connection / with tha i
working of ' the railways generally.
If there had been three Garrett engines
put on the South lihe he ventured to say
ihey would have been off the track to
day, The new line would facilitate ade
quate hauling power with the existing en
gines. . ' '

. . "Relay the -Liae."

The Chairman—Failing the finding of
this new road, which is the better proposi
tion, to eliminate the curves in order to
give you an. engine that will haul a 3!

ton load on ah. 80-lb. mil, or to put in 100
Jb. rail which will enable you to put in
an engine that will haul the load?—It
would be better to relay the line with 100
lb.. rail, and: if you do that it carries with
it the relaying of the whole of the subur

ban system. Continuing, he said- that he '■
supplied figures, giving an estimate of the

cost of 26 new engines at £13,500'each! j
He was at present trying super-beaters oh
three -different types.----.lt would be .pos- .
sible to-'get-'u consolidated engine that
would, cross Murray Bridge. • The Witness
criticised .the policy-of not strengthening
the'.main line. He said the department
was in-the same position as ten year's'ago-:
The lines, had been strengthened without
consequent alterations to structural work,
and "the engines could hot 'be put on car
tain lines., .. -

■Mr. Gunn—How do you explain that?—
Ask somebody'who is responsible. There
'had been no systematic relaying,' and die
had heen-up against-it for years. -There
had been serious opposition to the Loco
motive Department right through the
whole piece. If a proper system had been
introduced he could have- put in larger
engines long ago. When Mr. MoncrieiT was

Commissioner the policy had been adopted \
to strengthen the line and "carry heavier
loads to get over double banking. The
witness had asked,him to -put in 100-lb
nails. : . .

The Chairman—It is a".pity that' was not
done. We would have been over all our

troubles. . . . j

The Committee adjourned. i

New Routes Bejng Examined.

The Minister of flail ways (Hon. W.
Hagfie) stated on Tuesday that his atten
tion had been drawn to letters in the press
from Major Smeaton and Sir Dougios Maw
son in regard to a- line ox railway to re
lieve the Hills line and provide a better
gradient. This was not a new suggestion,

and had been in the minds of railway ofli- ;
cers for some considerable time. In March
last he approved of a sum of mongy being
provided for an examination of this coun
try, with a view to ascertaining i: a bet
ter grade could be -obtained! One sug
gested route had been examined arid a re
port supplied. Another. route was being
examined at the present time.

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