Lists (None yet)

Login to create lists

Tagged (None yet)

Add Tags

Comments (None yet)

Add New Comment

5 corrections, most recently by doug.butler - Show corrections





The PRESIDENT took the chair at 2 o'clock.


., The Hon. J. BAKER asked whether the Inspector of «¿-Sheep had been informed of a report which had obtained f circulation, stating that a number of scabby sheep had

entered the colony from the South-Eastern district. He Had a personal interest in asking for the information, besides hi.« regard for the benefit of the colony at large.

The Hon. the CHIEF SECRETARY was not aware of the

Êrecise facts, although he believed that some scabby sheep

ad crossed the River Murray, but would make enquiries and

report to the House.


The Hon. the CHIEF SECRETARY, with reference to a question asked by the Hon. Mr. Baker as to an alleged error in His Excellency's despitch, had made enquiries, and ascertained that there was no error, and that it was intended to use the word "no " and not the woid " an."


The Hon. J. BAKER, pursuant to notice, asked the Chief Secretary "why there had not, in accordance with the resolution of this Council, passed 12th July, 1859, been laid upon the table of this Council by the Govern ment, any report from the Registrar-General, subsequent to that lall on the table of this Council, I6tli August, 1859, pursuant to that resolution, exhibiting the progress and i working of the Real Property A-it, pi-iuting out any .lefects I In the law itself, or any impediments to its general adoption

that may have beend-veloped by experience, and contrasting Us results generally with those accruing under the system of conveyancing, with registrations of instruments established under previous Statutes and Colonial Acts."

The Hon. the CHIEF S -.CRErARY replied that there turn in question was in course of preparation, aud would be ready to be laid on the table of the House by the Tuesday following.

TRUCK BILL. In Committee.

| The Hon. G. F. ANGAS ask°d if they were to understand [ by the term'-current coin of the realm" lint bank-notes in

circulation in the colony wen» foi be ex -luded.

Tli.»Hon. theCHrEF SECRETARY replied that theSth clause was explanatory

The Hon. G. F. ANGAS observed that if it was so the two clauses were at variance therewith.

The Hon. J. BAKER said that then both clauses would be useless, as one stipulated tint the wages should be paid in coin, and the other Ipft i optional.

The lion. W. SCOTT drew attention to the 15th and 17th clauses, where it was provided that hay, food, &c, weie hot to b . included in the objectionable modes of payment.

The Hon. the CHIEF SECRETARY said that the effect of the clause would lie that the wages should be paid in coin, ?out the persons might if they chose take Hank notes, drafts, ûr orders ; but without the 8th clause, the employer would $ot be permitted so to pay the workmen.

' The-Hon J. BAKER considered thai the payment of the c»ntracf3 .should be enforced in the form of what was con- sidered a legal tender. The whole Bill was the greatest ttotch he had ever seen in his -life, and he could only acfcountfor the circumstance of the present Mininistrv having adopted it by supDOsing that they had found it already pre ÇSarcU fo . them when they took office. He thought the Bill \vould be more inj iriotis than beneficial to the working .'classes. He had had some conversation with Mr. Ayers, .who was a great employer of labor, and that gentleman did 'nnt innsider that the measure would benefit the working


The Hon. G. F. ANGAS said that it was stipulated that payment should be made in the current coin of the realm ; if. therefore, the clause were to have effect, and if the pay- ment were to'be tendered in the form of notes, the contract would.-be null and voM.

The Hon theCHIEF SECRETARY hoped the Bill would be proceeded with. It was one of the measures referred to in His Excellency's address at the opening of Parliament, and it was desiratile that the qnestion should be settled. He did not think that the Truck Act went so far as it should do ; for it was intended to check the establish- ment of a system which was springing up of contractors paying their workmen in orders on storekeepers. The Hon. Mr. Baker had referred to the Hon. Mr. Ayers as an employer of labor. He, the Chief Sec- retary, was ignorant of what Mr. Ayers's opinions were, but he must have understood the Bill to refer to private con- tracts, whereas the operations of the Bill were intended to be confined to Government contracts, and not to others ; and even in this respect, the Governor had power to suspend its operations in districts where its suspension was desirable. Although the Bill did not do all that was wanted, it pioposed to do as much as was possible.

The Hon. G. F. ANGAS remarked, that the Bill was pro- fessedly Introduced for the benefit of the working-classes, while there was not one single clause to protecttlie artificer. He thought that a clause should be introduced providing that the wages of the men should be paid out of the Government contracts, as at present no provision was made to secure guarantees from the contractors. Many of the great establishments in England, and some oi the great iron works in Scotland, had been working in con- travention of the Act. for it was felt to be an injustice that the workmen could not be supplied with the necessaries of life, as there were many factories at a distance from town, and the men would have to go without supplies and starve unless they obtained them from their employers. There was a case during the construction of the railway when 400 or 500 workmen were in a state of conspiracy in consequence of being without provisions. It might be said thai a clause in the Act permitted the Governor to suspend the operation of the Act, but it was found in England that orders in Council were a very delicate question. Such a permission was not only an infraction of the Act, but would also create a iel my in case any person were to forge the Governor's signature. If the Government, however, were to interfere In one instance, they could interfere in another, and as far as experience had gone all previous Acts had failed to effect the good they desired. In the case of seamen on board ship, they weie supplied with tobacco, clothes, knives, &c, which they could not get. otherwise. The Bill was found to be ira \ practicable in all the manufacturing districts in England.

It was intended to protect the labouring class from the con

| sequence of the failure of contractors, whiei object would be

better attained by a mutual contract between workmen and ' employers, so that the wages shoula be p.iid out of the con-

tracts. Otherwise disputes might arise as to which party I was resposible for the payment, the Government or their ' employ eis.

The Hon. A. FORSTER said that lie was so far connected with the question that he had presented a petition from the working classes formerly on the same subject, praying for the abolition of the tiuck system, the leading complaint in that petition being that the men were deprived of their wages by the failure of insolvent contractors. There was no doubt that the Government desired to relieve the working men from the grievances of which they complained, hut he was afraid that Hie Government who liad given the title to the petition had in reality founded the Bill on the title rattler than on the piayer of the petition itself. He would give hi

support to the measure, although the Bill did not reach the chief feature of the grievance. It was undesirable that particular sections of the community should demand pay- ment in coin, as the Government could not protect a y par- ticular cUjss of persons in that manner, and he thought the law had better be lett as it was. It could not be said that bank notes were current coin of the realm, and he recoin mended that the Hon. the Chief Secretary should allow the Bil) to stand over for » few Jays.

The Hon. the CBIEF SECRETARY remarked that the grievances of the working man were twofold. First, the truck system ; and secondly, he not receiving his wages at all. It was intended to redress the evils of the truck system by means or the present Act. The Government were at present in communication with the Central Road Board with reference to their contracts, and with a viewo. secunng guarantees from the contractors. The Act really was Intended to 'compel Government to ac- ept the services of persons in the taking of contracts, who would engage to pay their workmen in the current coin of the realm. If the Bill were to be thrown oui some misconception would arise as to the motives whicli liad actuated its i ejection.

The Hon. A. FORSTER wished to know if the Govern- ment had suggested to ,the Central Road ¡Board the pro- priety of detaining the moneys of the contractors for th payment of the workmen.

The Hon. the CHIEF SECRETARY replied that the question was under consideration, and undoubtedly the Central Road Board wouhi adopt the suggestion. This would have a beneficial result, as works would fall into responsible


The Hon. G. F. ANGAS thought that the Government should pass a Bill compelling the contractor to give a gua- rantee that he would pay his workmen. In England it was usual for securities to be taken, and there was no rea-on why there should not be in the colony. If the second and third clauye. Introduced that wages should be paid in the current <*>in of the realm, including bank notes, a mutual eontract between workmen and employers would provide for , the difficulty.

1 JThe Hon. the CHIEF SECRETARY remarked, that if the Government were to demand security they would be looked on as a security by the people, who would fall back on them for the pay of their wages, if they were not paid other- wise. However, the suggestion was worthy of cousidt-ra tion, and he would move that the Bill be ptoceede I with and not taken out of Committee, in order to afford the hon. member an opportunity of introducing a clause.

The Hon. G. F. ANGAS remarked that if arrangements were to be made that contractors should give orders on the Government for the payment of wages, those orders would be received as part payment of the Government contracts.

The Hon. J. BAKER thought it would be desirable for the Committee to report progress, in order that the surges Mons mighf be considered. There were some ca«es in which It was impossible for men to provide themselves with arti- cles which they required, particularly on distant stations, where the stockowners supplied their workmen. It was true that the Governor had the power of suspending the Bill, but it was surely not desirable to pass a Bill which it was found necessary frequently to suspend. The Hon. Mr. Ayers had said that he hoped the t Council would kick out the Bill unanimously. The Bill had r two taken mainly from the English Bill, and would prove to

be injurious here. It was not desirable to 'proceed with it, and he moved that the Chairman report progress.

.,. The Hon. the. CHIEF SECRETARY remarked that the » -fgillhad been prepared from an English Act, and many '. clausesfromit introduced. It would, if passed, remove a ?f cause of dissatisfaction on the part ol the workpeople, and | ïosd contractors would nat play so much into the hands oi 1 country storekeepers as they had hitherto done.

?The Hon. J< BAKER thought that a provision to pay

wages every Saturday night would meet the difficulty, as f~ then men ¿ould buy on their own terms from the store r keepers, who, when they supplied them on the faith of } receiving their wages, ran a certain risk.

The Hon. G. F. ANGAS remarked that the Act had been taken from 1st or 2nd William IV., in whii h there was no 2 reference to an order in Council to set aside the Act in S certain cases. He thought that an additional clause might ** be introduced to provide for such a con lingen ey.

; The Ho. theCHIEF SECRETARY.would prefer that the B bon. member should prepare a clause.

| The Hon. G. F. ANGAS would be happy to assist the ¡j Hon. the Chief Secretary, but declined preparing a clause j himself.

\ The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, the report was j adopted, and leave was granted to sit again. ¡ ' MESSAGE.

i . A message was received Irom the House of Assembly, en- s' closing copyof a resolution asking that leave be -riven to the ( Hon. Sir J. H. Fisher to attend and give evidence before a r Select Committee, on i he subject of the Morphett-street ? lUilway Crossing and Goods Shed. ¡ jLeave granted, if he saw fit.


The Council went into Com nittee to consider the message received from the House of Assembly relative to the altera- tions "vliich had been made in the Bill.

The Hon. the CHIEF SECRETARY drew attention to i ifceoriginal alteration made by the Legislative Council from senior member to '-Speaker of the House of Assembly," ' which the Assembly proposed to alter into "the Hon. George Charles HawSer. Esq." He thought the alteration was an unimportant matter, and was sure that the Council never in- tended any indignity to the House of Assembly or the Speaker. (Hear, hear.) And he would, therefore, move that »'the Legislative Council do not insist on the alteration «rhich been objected to by the House of Assembly." - ^JThe Hon. Major O'HALLORAN seconded.

'TheHon. J. BAKER remarked on the absence of some fixed rule with regard to titular distim-tion, and said that he had been placed in a difficulty when in England in hot knowing whether he was entitled to use the term ' Honor- able* on bis card or not, as although he was informed by the \ Xiord Chamberlain that he was entitled to the prefix, it was

- not in every instance accorded.

The Hon. J. MORP H E IT agreed with the Hon. the Chief Secretary in consenting to the alteration of the Bill, as although Mr. Hawker was ex-offleio as Speaker, one of the Governors of the Botanic Garden«, he was also one as a private individual.

The Hon. J. BAKER considered that the Hoq. G- C. Hawker, merged into the Hon. the Speaker, whjch was a higher distinction. He thought the Council were rig» to alter the title as they had done. if

The Hou. W. SCOTT thought that the title should be the X Hi». G C. Hawker, Speaker of the House of Assembly, as k-freah members would have to be appointed every year and

m would have to be distinctive.

I The Hon! G. HALL was of opinion that the titi« of I Speaker would take precedence over any other title, but if I jfir. Hawker's name were to be retained, in case of a

Speaker retiring, or of- the Mayor of Adelaide,-** the Chair- man of the Agricultural Society retiring, there would be 9, 1 , or li Governors of the Board, instead of eight as pro- vided by the Act.

The Hon. J. BAKER remarked that when Mr. Hawker ceased to be the Hon. the Speaker, he would cease to be the Hon. G. C. Hawker, and was at present Governor in virtue of his office. He would not, however, offer any oppo-


The Hon. W. SCOTT observed th it the 3rd clause merely contained the names of the first Board of Governors until their successors were appointed. ,, t . .

The Hon. G. HALL tnonitht the clause should be referred

to a conference of the two Houses. -

The PRESIDENT put the motion of the Hon. the Chief Secretary, "that the Legislative Council did not insist

on the alteration," which waa carried.

The CHAIRMAN reported progress, and leave was granted

to sit again.

The House then adjourned to Tuesday.



The SPBAKEH look the chair at half-past 1 o'clock.


Various notices of motion were given, which ¡which will be found in their pioper places. Certain returns were laid on the table by the Government, and ordered to be printed.


"That the petition of John Finnis, presented to the late House of Assembly on 17th December, and ordered to be printed December 22nd, 185*, be reierred to a Select Com- mittee to take evidence report on the matters contained


In rising on behalf of an old and respected colonist for the Select Committee, he would not detain the House with any lengthened remarks. The circumstances connected with the case would be perfectly familiar to the whole of the old members of that house. He held in his hand the petition to which reference had been made, hut woula not trouble the House with extracts from it, but con-

tent himself with saying that under the report of a Select Committee which investigated the claim, Mr. Finnis was entitled to a sum of money, and in waiting to get payment of that sum lie had incurred great less of time, and had been put to great expense and much inconvenience. It appear d to him (Mr. Grundy» that if the claim was just, the person should not be put to any loss in getting paid what he had a right to. He considered the que tion important not only to Captain Finnis, but that it affected the character of the whole of tha colony, and that the honor of the House audits reputation in thenthercolonies would be affected by it as it was for work done for the House in publishing in the Hansard the speed es of lion, members, with a view to hand them down to posterity-(laughter)-and therefore he moved that the motion standing ic his name be adopted.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL, before the question was put, would say that having bi en a member of the Committee which sat on the petition he could say that 1 he Committee considered the matter well, and that they agreed to lecotn mend a certain sum, which John Finnis was paid, and he got all that he was entitled to and something more The sum was paid for a certain work, but lie would ask any of the lion. members who sat in the House at that time whether the work was such as was con- tracted to be done for the money. He would say it was not, and if the demand had been made by the person who com- menced the work there was a doubt whether he would have got a shilling, but it was in consequence of John Finnis being bound to finish the work, as the bondsman of Mr. James Allen, that the Government paid the money. The contract was for 500l., of which Mr. James Allen received 100l., and Mr- Finnis's claim arose from one of those common cases, where a man became bondsman for another to do certain work, and he failing to do s.o. the bondsman had to do it. It was a common case, and he, the Attorney-General, was not aware that there were any facts con- tained in the petition to justify the House to interfere further in the matter. As to the allegations in the petition, even if they were true, there would be no claim, and he saw   no reason why the committee should be granted.

The motion was put, and negatived.  


" That the Report of the Select Commitee on the Prospec- tus of the Great Northern Copper Mining Company be agreed to."

He said before he spoke upon the matters contained in the motion, be would ask the indulgence of the House, as it might be necessary for him to address the House at some con- siderable length. He would first call attention to the motion which had previously been submitted by him on the   subject, under which the Committee was granted. (The Hon. member here read the motion, ) He then stated the circum- stances connected with the report. The Committee having entered upon their labours, in due time presented their report, and he would simply say that report would be borne out entirely by the evidence, and that every allegation in it was substantiated. If he was stating what was not correct, and if any Hon. member could point out any misstatements he should make, he should be happy to meet him. but he believed every allegation had   been proved. It might, indeed, be said the report does not go far enough -(hear)-that it was not strong enough (Hear.)' He considered so himself, but he agreed with the report as far as it went, because every allegation in it was true, and was substantiated by the evidence. The first point to which he would call attention was the paragraph expressing regret that the Hon. John Baker had refused to attend and give evidence before the Committee. He would state, with reference to that paragraph, that, the usual form was observed, which was that a member should move that a message be sent to the Legislative Council, re- questing permission of a member of that House to attend,     and had it been anticipated that he would have refused, other steps might have been taken, but the Committee reported

the refusal to the House, and on the motion of the hon. member, Mr. Dutton, seconded by the hon. member. Mr. A. Blyth, another message to the Legislative Council was agreed upon. Now, he thought that by careful perusal of the 3rd clause of the Privilege Act, it would be seen that this action was not necessary, and that the Assembly could have summoned Mr. Baker in his private capacity, because the things done by the Hon. John Baker were done by him in his private capacity, and as it was competent for that House to summons any private individual for examina- tion, the House could have done so in this case without the sanction of the Legislative Council. The reason assigned by Mr. Baker for not attending was, that the member who   moved for the Committee was actuated by personal motives, and that the Hon. gentleman refused to attend. Upon this   he would say that the Hon. gentleman's conduct strongly contrasted with that ot the Hon. Mr. Ayers who, when summoned before the Committee, attended with alacrity, and gave his evidence unreservedly. Had it not been for   this alleged personal feeling, he, Mr. Townsend, would cer-   tainly have tested the feeling ol the House as to compelling the attendance of Mr Baker. Every obstacle had been thrown in the way of this Committee, and that brought him to par. 3 of the report, respecting the non-attendance of Mr Finke. He, Mr. Townsend, saw Mr. Finke the day before he was requested to attend the Committee. Mr. Finke knew   the important matter on which he was wanted. He knew his, Mr. Finke's, character was implicated, but so far from attend, ing, he suddenly left town to a place where it would have cost the country perhaps 50/. to have brought him back. Had he, Mr. Townsend, been in Mr. Finke's place, and though   there was the slightest charge likely to implicate him, how- ever great the expense, he would have thought it his duty to have attended the Committee, and given evidence. Then, again, Mr. Chambers refused to answer questions put to him by the Committee, From that he, Mr. Townsend, would pass to the subject of the leases. Those leases were applied for by Chambers and Finke for many months before they     were granted under the regulations of 1851 ; but the appli-   cations were refused, till Mr. Neales became Commissioner of Crown Lands, when the applications were again renewed, and it appeared by the evidence that, on the 17th June, 1859, Major Freeling, the Chief of the Survey Department, wrote to Mr. Neales that the leases could not be granted in   the way they were applied for; yet on the 18th June following Mr. Neales granted the leases to Chambers and Finke in spite of the letter of Major Freeling. (Hear.) On the 17th of June Major Freeling tells Mr. Neales that it was impossible to grant the leases in the manner proposed, and on the 18th they were granted. Upon that part of the case he would refer to the evidence of Mr. Neales himself, on which the committee founded par. 12 of report. The Hon. member then   referred to Mr. Neales's evidence, as given in questions 168 et seq., and proceeded:-The rule with regard to the granting of leases was that when applications were sent they were ex mined in the Survey Department,which corresponded with the Land Office, after which the leases were prepared and for- warded to the Chief Secretary, who in the Executive Council obtained the signature of the Governor. Was this done in this case? It was not. (Hear.) He apprehended that those forms were forms of growth and framed on the principle that although one Minister was answer- able for his own acts, yet that his acts were submitted to the other Ministers for approval, so that what he did himself should not implicate them without their knowledge, because although one Minister was responsible himself, the whole of the other Ministers were responsible for him also ; but Mr Neales disregarded those forms altogether, and without submitting the leases to his colleagues, or even mentioning to them what he was doing, granted thein upon his own responsibility. Mr. Neales when  

before he Committee was asked the qustion why he issued the leases without the consent of his colleagues; and all they got for an answer was that he did not submit them to his colleagues, because there was no time, as Captain Hart was   on the eve of his departure for England. He, Mr. Townsend would ask what objection could there be in Mr Neales with- holding the leases then, and sending them on by the next mail? as by so doing there could be no injustice done to Captain Hart; but it appeared that the vessel which took Captain Hart away from Port Adelaide, put in at Glenelg, and that very night Mr. Neales was there, aud went on board, and was heard to say to Captain Hart

" Well, you have got your leases" (hear)-and it also appeared that at this interview the letter which was written to Captain Dashwood was handed to Captain Hart ; because Mr. Hancock, when asked about the matter, knew all about the fact of Mr. Neales having written to Captain Dashwood, and Mr. Hancock was. in consequence, in possession of the information that Mr Neales had written to Captain Dashwood before the House here knew of that fact. From all these circumstances there   was no doubt that Mr. Neales told Mr. Hart he had written a letter to Mr. Dashwood; Mr. Hart tells Mr. Hancock, and out came the prospectus. Mr. Neales stated that the sets had been extensively tested, but with regard to the sets having been tested, Mr. Neales was asked by the Committee how he knew they were tested, and he admitted that he knew nothing about it himself, but had stated it in the letter     to Captain Dashwood, on account of what he knew by com-   mon report, aud that he wrote from the best evidence he could get. He, Mr. Townsend, would ask whether a Minister of the Crown was justified in making a deliberate statement as to the particulars of a case merely upon what he knew

from rumor?

Mr. HANSON rose to order. He was not aware to what part of the report the Hon. member was addressing his argument. If the question before the House was simply the adoption of the report, he would ask if the hon. member was in order in alluding to such matters ?

Mr. TOWNSEND read paragraph 12 of the report, and

contended he was in order.

The SPEAKER ruled Mr. Townsend was in order.

Mr. TOWNSEND hoped he should not be interrupted again. He believed the reason he was called to order was that the hon. member for the City thought that his gigantic abilities authorised him to dispense with the precaution of reading the report on which his, Mr. Townsend's remarks were founded. He was saying that the Commissioner wrote a letter purporting to contain well authenticated facts, when it turned out that they were mere rumors, and he, Mr Townsend, had simply said that it was what no public man should do. (Hear.) There was no doubt the letter to Captain Dashwood was written for publication in   England, for in the prospectus of the Great Northern mine, they say tbat the Burra proprietors had offered a large sum of money on the strength of Mr. Bryant's report, and he would ask if that was true," It was well known that no sum had been offered by that Company for Chambers and Finke's mine, for both the Chairman of the Company and Mr. Ayers had denied that the Company had offered any sum at all, absolutely ; and they denied that the offer which was made, was made upon the faith of Mr. Bryant's report. Mr. Chambers had also said that he met Mr. Kingston in   Hindley-street. and that he had offered 30,000/. for the mine,   but when Mr. Kingston was questioned about it, he denied that he had made such an offer, and gave as his reason because as Chairman of the Company he had no authority, and he could not do so on his own account, as he was not in possession of funds for such a purpose. Again in the pros- pectus put forth to the people of England, the Governor's   speech was cited, in which he referred to the mineral deposits     in the north, and the prospectus stated that the spots re- ferred to in the governor's speech, were those which were comprised in Chambers and Finke's leases, when it was well     known that before those leases were issued, there were the Appealina and Mochatoona Mines. and other reputed mineral lands in the north. He would ask hon members. and espe- cially the late Attorney-General, to peruse the Governor's address, and he would defy them to say that the words of that address, either directly or by implication could be said to refer to Chambers and Finke's Mine. Mr. Baker in his correspondence with the editor of the Mining Journal in

London, gives a glowing description of the immense mineral   wealth comprised in the leases, and in one letter says he for- wards him a dispatch telling him that those valuable spots have been secured by Messrs. Chambers and Finke con- taining large quantities of metal, and again that he is in the

daily habit of reading the Adelaide newspapers, all of which confirmed his representations of the richness of Chambers and Finke's leases, and that the Governor in his address had made them the subject of special notice to the     Parliament. If it were asked for what reason   was it that His Excellency had been made  

a party to the prospectus, he could answer that it was

clearly for the purpose of raising the shares of the Company to a premium ; but when His Excellency, after finding out what statements had been put forth to the people ol' England, wrote contradicting them, the shares fell. He, Mr. Townsend, knew that the people of England, when they saw the names of persons to a scheme who had gained respect and honor amongst their feilow-colonists, and whom they knew by repute almost as well as the colonists themselves did, placed confidence in any scheme to which such names were attached, and in this connection he would allude to the unauthorised use made of the name of the Hon. John Morphett. Mr. Townsend then stated that at the moment when these representations were being made in England the leases had passed from Chambers and Finke to Messrs. Baker and Paxton. He then spoke upon the evidence of Mr. Bonney taken before the Committee, and remarked that in all his experience he never met with such   a number of gentlemen concerned in one matter who had such bad memories.-(laughter) -for at first it could not be ascertained whether Captain Hart had any shares at all in the Company, though it was at last drawn out that he originally held 1,000 and sold out directly they advanced to 1s. 6d. premium. Mr. Townsend continued that if such persons as Mr. Baker or Mr. Hart saw that their names were being used to give weight to statements which were   false, it was their duty to protest against it; at least he, Mr. Townsend, if ever he went home, and were in similar   circumstances, would do so. One influential colonist. Mr. J. B. Hughes, had done so, and had, under the signature of '. South Australian," written to the Times on the subject. Mr. Hughes met Mr. Baker in Cheapside, and asked him about the Company. But Mr. Baker said " Well, if they are such fools, let them do it." He would make another remark. It was said by the Hon. member, and which was repeated in the prospectus, that the colonial Government contemplated making a railway to the north for the purpose of developing Chambers and Finke's mine, when it was well known by every one that the railway spoken about had reference only to a survey for   a railway to Mount Remarkable, so far away from the mines that if it was constructed the ore would not go upon it. (Hear.) He had been charged with being actuated by per-   sonal feelings, and had been threatened with legal proceed- ings, and the late Attorney-General had been retained against him. He had been charged with being the tool of others. No doubt the persons who called nim a " tool " were familiar with tools themselves ; but he would say that he never was nor ever would be the tool of any man, and with regard to his being actuated by personal motives it was quite the reverse, for he respected Mr. Neales very much, and had every reason to respect him, as he had been his partner in business, and he always held him in re-   spect till the proceedings he had been guilty of took place. He would not attempt to say what that gentleman's motives were. It might be that in his enthusiasm to intro- duce large masses of capital into the colony, that he had in- terfered as he had done. With regard to the action for libel, he, Mr. Townsend, was content to be answerable and stand the consequences of anything he might say outside the House; but he would ask' hon. members whether they would let any of the members of the Legislative Council in- terfere with their right of speech in that Assembly. (Hear, hear.) Upon that point he could refer to May, who clearly laid down the principle for which he now contended. He concluded by saying that the report was not exactly what he could have wished, nor was it the report which he had drafted. (Hear.) It was a popular error in supposing that the Chairman of a Committee had any peculiar power in passing a report. He had in fact no special power, for the Chairman's report could be disposed of paragraph by paragraph, and so far as this report went, he did not think it was strong enough. He had, in Committee, proposed

Mr. MORPHETT rose to order ; he believed the hon. mem- ber was alluding to another report ; he submitted he should

confine himself to the one before the House.

The SPEAKER ruled Mr. Townsend to be out of order. '

Mr. TOWNSEND was merely going to say that he would have preferred saying that the Committee "believed" Mr. Neales had no evidence, &c.. rather than the Committee doubt "whether he had." He would now move the adoption of the report, conscious that he had performed his duty, and not fearing any consequence which the performance of his duty might entail upon him. (Hear.)

Mr. MORPHETT seconded.

Mr. DUTTON would have much rather that it had not   been necessary for him to say anything at all. The matter was not of so much interest that it should take up the time of the House in this way. The House now had the report and the evidence taken before the Select Committee, and could form their own judgment. There were some portions of that evidence which he thought reflected upon individual   members, and he would ask whether in addressing the House

an hon. member would be in order in referring to the evi-   dence taken before the Committee?  

The SPEAKER said the hon. member could refer to any   part of the evidence taken before the Select Committee, and

which was laid on the table of the House.  

Mr. DUTTON was extremely sorry that such an occur- rence as this had taken place. He regretted that the Hon, member for Onkaparinga had expressed himself so strongly when he had moved for this Committee. He was not quite satisfied that the evidence taken before the Committee had borne out the statement made by the Hon, member. He was not aware whether the Hon, member had altogether justified the speech which he made or the aspersions which he cast upon Messrs. Baker and Hart, and he (Mr. Dutton) did not agree in those aspersions. What he wished to refer to par- ticularly, however, was the report of the evidence of Mr. Neales in reference to Messrs. Chambers and Finke's leases. That gentleman had stated before the Committee that he had taken the precedent from the act of Mr. Dutton in granting those leases-that he had merely followed   the precedent laid down in the case of the lease ot Messrs. Bath and Bosance. He, Mr. Dutton, had not seen any of the evidence which was brought before that Committee until it was laid in its printed form before the House, but had he known the nature of the evidence he would have communicated with some member of the Com- mittee, that he might have been examined as a witness, and would not now have taken up the time of the House. In

answer to question 175 Mr. Neales said-"I took a prece- dent which had been left in the office by Mr. Dutton, who filled up to Messrs. Bath and Bosance, and to E. Barclay, leases which have never been disturbed, and which were precisely the same as these." Now this statement was totally untrue. The question of the leases lo Messrs. Bath and Bosance had been fully explained by him, Mr. Dutton, during the last session, and it was quite incredible to him how Mr. Neales could have had the temerity to stand up and quote that case to justify himself in the illegal act hu had committed. In answer to question No. 177, as to whether the leases granted to Chambers and Finke were illegal, Mr. Neiles had replied "Yes; but I did not know at the time, because the only form of lease I could find, was the form which I filled up. This statement was also totally untrue, as the proper forms were left In the Sur   veyor-General's office. He could not conceive how any gen- tleman occupyiug any position in the community could take upon himself to make such statements to screen himself from the consequences of his act. He was certain that proper leases were available in this matter. Then in answer to question 178, as to whether leases were not generally filled up by Mr. Wildman, they had Mr. Neales statiug that ' he did not know." He was sorry he had not been called before this Committee, because then he should have been able to have put this matter in its proper light. In answer to the question No 31a, as to whether on the leases found in the office the word "cancelled" was not written?-Mr.   Neales stated, "No. I deny it ; but you must not go on my word alone, you can ask Mr. Wildman." He, Mr. Dutton, did not know what to say ; all he could say was, that he did cancel the leases, and he wrote "cancelled" across them in his own handwriting. He looked upon the whole of the evidence given by Mr. Neales before that Committee as a tissue of misrepresentation and untruths, made to secure himself from the consequences of his own malpractices in that department. He would now only refer to the  

letter written by Mr. J. B. Neales to the Governor   upon the subject of these leases, and he would say, in refe- rence to it, that he did not remember ever seeing a more disgraceful or disreputable letter than this, and he thought the writer must be heartily ashamed of himself. In para- graph 9 of that letter he says-" To my'mortification, I well know leases were issued to Chambers and Finke. But who drew those leases? Who approved the same forms? Who filled up the same blanks, in the same way? And who allowed your Excellency to sign them with all formality without haste. and through the proper channel? In the case of Bath and Bosance, and Barclay, I Ihink but one answer can be given -your advisers. Not that I wish to attach any

blame to at least two members of the Executive -Messrs. Blyth and Finniss -or anything beyond carelessness to the Attorney-General ; but of the other two, I will leave you to judge how far carelessness only can be imputed " What was here meant by the expression " carelessness only "' unless, indeed, that Mr. Younghusband and himself (Mr. Dutton) had been playing into the hands of Messrs. Bath and Bosance and Mr. Barclay in issuing those leases, as he (Mr. Neales) had done in the case of Messrs. Chambers and Finke ? He would at once state that he knew nothing of those leases to'Bath and Bosance until after they were issued, -no more, in fact, than the hon. the Speaker himself did. Here it would just be necessary for him to reter to another paragraph (15); of the letter, in which Mr. Neales said "I beg most respectfully to deny my attention ever being called to the questionable nature of the leases ; not a doubt was breathed of their illegality ; and it would appear all other members of the Executive were as ignorant as myself. And certainly, the Chief Secretary's declaration to me, on the 20th of June, was either an entire ignorance of the im- perfect nature of the forms, or something very much worse. I can well understand that the Chief Secretary never under- took to defend my mistake, as his nominee, Mr. Dutton, would never have moved in it without his concurrence, if not encouragement." No communication had ever occurred between him, Mr. Dutton, and Mr. Younghusband, or any other member of the Ministry, in reference to the action which he took regarding those leases. This was a most un- worthy aspersion against the members of the late Ministry. Mr. Younghusband had never known what he had done, until he, Mr. Dutton, had tabled a motion. Mr. Neales supposed him to be the nominee of the Chief Secretary.   He only regretted that such an old colonist as Mr. J. B. Neales should have allowed himself to adopt the course he had done. He, Mr. Dutton., would at once deny that he had anything to do with granting the leases to Bath and Bosance and to Barclay. True, those leases had been granted while he was Commissioner, but he had not been consulted respecting them until after the leases had been granted A mistake had been made, and the leases had been cancelled, and had Mr. Neales taken care he would not have fallen into the same mistake. Had he looked he never could have issued a similar lease to anybody else.

The motion was then put and carried.  


Mr. MORPHETT here moved that a message be sent to the Legislative Council requesting that permission be given to the Hon. the President to attend and give evidence before the Select Committee now sitting to enquire into the allega- tions contained in the petition in reference to the level crossing at Morphett-street.



Mr. COLE moved the motion standing in his name

"That this House »vii on Friday 3Iat August, resolve itself into a Committee of the whole for the purpose ofcon sideiing the motion that a . address be presented to His Ex- cellency the Governor-in-Chief, praying His Excellency to cause a sum of 2,0 Ol, tQ be placed on the Estimates for the year euding 30th June, 1861, as a subsidy to such funds as may be raised for the purpose of improving public roads bridges, &c, not being within the boundary of any District

Council or Corporation "

He did not anticipate any opposition to the House going into Committee, so he would content himself by simply

moving the motion

Hie T It E ASU t ER thought -

The SPEAKER reminded the hon. mover that the Esti- mates were now passed, He could not move that a sum of moni y be placed on those Estimates, bu t he must move that, tile item be placed on the Supplementary Estimates.

Mr. COLE would ask leave to amend his motion accord-


' -Leave was granted.

The TREASURER said it wis hardly worth while for the hon. memtierto have brought forward such a motion The present Government did not wish at the commencement of next year to meet with a similar reception to that which the late Ministry had met with on the previous day with respect to their excess paper He would put it to the House, and he was quite aware hon. members did not wish to put the present Government in such a position. He should much liked to have given the lion, member an opportunity of discussing the merits of his motion had they had the money. It was objectionable to pass such motions. The parties interested had the power to declare themselves into a District Council. If the Government were to admit such a motion it could only be under some such arrange- ment. The Government could not hand monies over to private parties to be laid out The only safeguard the Go- vernment hart for the proper disposal of funds in such cases was the District Councils ; and it was wrong to permit indi- viduals to have anything t-. do with the disposal of the public funds. After the House had appropriated all the revenue for the year, he thought the time of the House should not be taken up by such a motion.

j Mr. A. BLY TH would vote against the motion for a Com I mittee, because if the bon. member should be successful in

obtaining one he should have to vote against the motion. It wai peihaps therefore better that the motion'sh >uld be nipped in the bud at once rather thaq that it should go to a Committee and met with rejection afterwards.

Mr. DALE would support the motion for a Committee. He was really surprised at the opposition of the lion, member tor Gumeracha. The remarks of the Treasurer about distiicts incorporating themselves into District Counci B would not apply. Certain dis- tricts to his knowledge had applied to be incor p »rated, and had been refused. The district of Mintaro had on four or live occasions made such application, and had been refused, and a similar course hud been adopted in regard to other distiicts. If it was right for one district to 1 be incorporated, he thought it was right for another. His | ground of supporting this motion then was, that certain

districts had been refused incorporation. He thought that parties in districts where there wai no District Council should have some consideration, and he could not see why private individuals should not be en- trusted with the expenditure of public money the same as -a Corporation. In cases where there were District Councils, a great deal of the money raised was absorbed in salaries and expenses. If the House would agree to go into Committee on the consideration of this matter, therewould be no injustice done ; but if they refused, it would appear as if they desired to vote money for the improvement of one district over another. It was said that these districts might tax themselves, and they did do so, and the Govemment ought to subsidise them in the same manner as they did districts in which there were Corporations, pro- vided they taxed themselves to the same extent. If this vote was refused, he would know how to deal with such questions when brought forward on behalf ot other portions of the province. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. SUTHERLAND did not know that by refusing this motion he would be doing any injustice to other parts of the colony. He agreed that the inhabitants of thes* districts ought to tax themselves ; but they could only do this by forming themselves into a Municipal Corporation. If they were to tax themselves, they must have the machinery for doing so. (Hear.) The hon. member, Mr. Dale, had found fault, because he said that certain districts had applied for and could not obtain leave to form a Corporation. He imagined that application was made to the late Government ; but liad they applied to the present Government ? -If they had, and if they had been refused, if was very wrong. It had been said that in the establishment of District Councils, a large portion of the funds was absorbed in salaries. That was he thought in the division of the districts. If the ; districts had been kept in large areas, this would not have been so. By these divisions the districts were punished, because they had not so much revenue, and their expenses

were increased.

Dr. WARK had thought at first that this was a general motion. He now found, however, that the motion refered to one particular district. He could n .t under those circum- stances support it The hon. seconder had complained that some of the districts were denied the liberty of taxing them- selves. If this was the case, he had no doubt but that there were proper reasons for so doing. On reference to the mip of Council districts, lie found that the Councils had not been established as proposed. He thought with the last speaker that the Government erred in dividing the District Councils. He thought the district should be allowed to have a Council. The districts should tax themselves and receive their fair share of the public funds according to the 'amount of that

taxation, rllear.)

The COMMISSIONER OF PUBLIC WORKS hoped the motion would be withdrawn. If the House would only con- sider they would find that 2.000Î. would go a very little way in improving public roads, bridges, &c. The result of the motion would be very different from what was intended. If it was only foi the benefit of one or two individuals who were de- sirous ofmakingroads, they would be coming to Government and asking 500/. or 600Í. in addition to it. Ii it was desirable that this money should be. voted, the inhabitants should form a District Council ; and the" Government would then have a guarantee tor the proper carrying out of any works which might be attempted. The lion, mover would see that if a precedent was established by which money was to be given in ipdividual cases, a man might g > and purchase a section in some inaccessible portion of the hills, a district road might be laid out to it, the man might build a house ; but beyond this no possible benefit would accrue. The only safeguard of the public was in Distiict Councils, and he trusted that the rule laid down would not be departed from. If a strong or special case was to arise the non. member should let the House know the case. If so, any one might come forward from Cape Northumberland to the far North and claim a similar subsidy. He hoped the hon. member would not press the motion, but would reserve it until he could bring it forward in reference to some particular locality. He thought there could be no benefit arising from a discussion of the motion on that day. (Hear.)

Mr. DUNN would not delay the House, very long. He thought, if this motion were carried, all the districts in the colony would be coming forward asking for the money. Single individuals would be found who would not mind laying out 2 Oi or 30u£, for the sake of getting 200/. or 3 0/. more. Government were quite willing to form District Councils, and that should be done before money was voted. They had seen how money had been previously voted away, and made bad use of in other cases, and he thought it should not be done again. He should vote against the Committee.

Mr. COLE did not think there would have been a debate upon this motion, or he would have gone into the matter more fully. He could assure the House he had no wish to initiate two debates. (Hear.) If the House would, how- ever, consent to go into Committee he would be prepared to show that it was advisable to lay out a sum of money in districts where no Corporations existed. In reference to those Councils it was quite possible for the settlers in any district to petition Government not to allow a Council to be formed, while it might be absolutely necessary that some means should be taken to have roads formed. By these petitions the Corporations could be prevented from being formed. It necessary, he could show where roads would be advantageous. The formation of a road through the town- ship of Kooringa would be a great a Ivantage (hear, hear) -to the settlers northward. The Com- missioner of Public Works had intimated that there was likely to be an abuse of the money if not laid out by a District Council. He did not believe this. He could not see that there would be any advantage, after the expres- sion of opinion given, by going into Committee. (Hear, hear.) He should, therefore, withdraw the motion ; at the same time he hoped that some steps would be taken to

improve the main street at Kooringa. (Laughter, and hear,


The motion was withdrawn,


A message was received from the Legislative Council, inform ng the House that leave had tieen given to the Hon.

the President to attend and give evidence before the Select Committee appointed to enquire into the allegations con- tained in the petition, in reference to the Morphett-street

Level Crossing, if he think fit.


Mr. MORPHETT said, iu moving the motion standing in

his name

'.That the House resolve itself into a Committae of the whole for the purpose f considering the following resolu- tion:-That when and so soon as any persons (whether form- ing a Compmy or otherwise) shall give sufficient proof that they are enabled to construct aline of locomotive railway troma point on the present Port Railroad, to be agreed upon, to a terminus at or near the Glenelg Jetty-such new îailwayto be oinmeneed at adate and to be completed within a period to be named -it is expedient that the Go- vernment shall guarantee to such persons or Company an annual interest on the capital expended at the rate of 6 per cent, per annum, provided that such guarantee .shall not extend to an am >unt exceeding 3,ooa¿. per annum."

He would not take up much of the time of the House. It would be in the recollection of hon. members thaj! on the 13th June last the House liad agreed to a resolution "moved by the lion, member for Encounter Bay, Mr. Lindsay, to the effect that "it is expedient for the carrying on of desirable public works that the Colonial Government should guarantee a miuimuiu rate ot interest on the capital invested in such

works by any company or capitalist who »ill undertake their I formation under regulations tha may be issued by the Colo- nial Government." He proposed now to apply that resolu- tion to the case now before them, which was one of great public benefit. He had no personal interest in this matter, but he brought it forward purely on public grounds. A pe- tition had been presented to that House in refer- ence to this matter, and he might state that this petition was sign¿d solely by parties resident in Adelaide, and not by parties resident at Glenelg : the petition was, therefore, one purely of public interest. He might say in reference to this propssert rail- way tint all the plans were now ready, the surveys and cal- culations for the undertaking having been ali eady mad . The mutter would have been brought forward at an earlier period of the session, but lie had recommended that it should be delayed. Now he found that within a radias of five miles from Adelaide terminus there were li,UO persons residing and within a radius of seven miles ot Glenelg resident in Adelaide there were 21,067 persons, so that there weie 3^,200 persons interested immediately in this question. [Hear.] From the trifflc returns which had been taken a few years ago by a gentleman who was now a most respected uiidusetul member of that House, it appeared that in the month of December, 1855. there were 404 6-7th daily pas- sengers, and 132 3-7ths vehicles daily ruuniug to Glenelg Ile might siy 404 6-7th at Is per journey: He was quite willing to admit that the month of December was one of the must favorable months in which to take returns, and that in the present stagnation of business

The SPEAKER here informed the hon. member that the

time had arrived when the Orders of the Day must be called


The TREASURER would move that the Orders of the Day be postponed until the motion before House was dis-

posed of.


The SPEAKER reminded the hon. member for West Torrens that he had neglected to move the House into


Mr. MORPHETT begged pardon. He would now move that the Speaker do leave the chair, and that the House go

into Committee. ..

The motion was carried.

Mr. MORPHETT then proceeded. The amount of trafBc to the Bay was much larger since these return 3 had been taken, and every year would increase that traffic. If, however there were only to be 100 persons travelling daily, it would give nearly 8,0Qul. per year at is. per head. He believed the cost of the line was estimated at 40,on0¿.-this would complete it. It was proposed that the line should commence at the . Gaol building, and its length would be six and a quarter mile-; over a level country. There was, it was true, one easy gradient, and that was all. The line proposed would pass through land which was not of much value, a"d the owners of such land gene- rally were anxious that a railway should be established. (Hear.) The line would go direct to the Jetty, and would so be available for the whole of the southern distriots. It was a matter of great uncertainty whethsr the Govemment would ever be cailed upontopiy one shilling of theguarantee. The proposal to establish this railway could not be looked upon as a matter of luxury-it was a matter of absolute necessity. It had become necessary that the pe pie of Adelaide should have some retreat during the oppressive summer months. He would put it to gentlemen having domestic circles whether they would like to see the partners of their joys and sorrows pining away in the intense heat of the summer months, or the pledges of their early affection languishing for want of sume healthful recreation. (Laughter.) He had not intended to be poetical, in fact he thought he «fas somewhat prosy. This motion was indeed more than a necessity. He was sure it would be admitted that it would be betterjfor our young men to be gambolling about, playing at leapfrog, or something lot that sort-(laughter) -on the beach, than to be nobbler sing their time away in the public-houses iu Adelaide.

The sooner this plan was carried out, it would be the better for the country in every respects. Even the legislators, af er the Hie and heat of the session, lequired some little recreation ; and they would then be able to go down to the beach and refresh themselves after their labors, returning very much invigorated to commence the labors of a new session, and to work for the country. (Laughter.) It was proposed to make the terminus at the same place as the present railway terminus : this was good, because there being only one railway terminus would be a çreat convenience to the puolio. He thought the motion was a reasonable one, and .if parties could satisfy the country that they were prepared to carry out the under- taking, there could be no harm in giving the little assistance asked for. (Hear, hear )

Dr. WARK rose to opoose themofion. He did not see what great things this railway was likely to accomplish for the country at large. He did not see what the country had got to do with the matter. If the thing was to be suoh a paying concern, why not have the private capitalists to do it themselves? The Hou3e had to consider the Interest and resumption of bonds of the railways they had already in the colony. Those had been constructed on most expensive principles. Take the Port R lilway ; all they wanted there was a cheap tramway for the conveyance of goods, and passengers might have been content to travel at a speed something less than 1 faster than the light- ning. They had now to pay the interest and resump- tion of those bonds. It was easy enough to spend a great deal and get little for it. (Laughter and cheers ) Something had been sai I about lion members wanting to refresh themselves. Why, if hon. members wanted to do that they could get a conveyance. ( Hear.) He thought, in these dulLtiraes, they had something else to do than to talk of constructing new lines of railway. They would have quite enough to do to maintain the line already made wlttiout plunging further into debt. If this railway was to be such a paying concern, let those interested take shares 111 it. Jiy this means Government would see what would be done, lie should vote against the motion. '

The TREASURER hoped tie hon. member would agree to certain amendments which he would propose. He was surprised to hear the hon. member for the Murray, Dr. Wark, say that he did not think hon. members required any refreshing. (Ne.) Why, he believed the hon. member him- self had frequently been seen enjoying the invigorating breezes of th sea. The amendments he would propose would make-the motion read thus :-"That when and so soon as any persons (whether fqrrqing a Company or otherwise; shall give proof tq the satisfaction of the Government that they are enabled to construct a' line of locomotive railway from a point on the present Port Railroad, to be agreed upon, toa terminus at or near the Glenelg Jetty-such new railway to be commenced at a date and to be completed within a period to be named-it-is expedient that the Government shall guarantee to such persons or Company an interest to be paid on the capital expended, for a period not exceeding ten years, provided that such guarantee sha 1 nqt extend to an amount exceeding 2.500Í. per annum." The object which induced him to move that the rate of interest should be e per cent, was, that whenever money was

borrowed by the Government it could be obtained for that amount. He did not therefore see why they should pay more to a private company than they could borrow money for in the English market. He did not think that there would really be any necessity for any guarantee of the kind. He thought 40,0 oi. for a line of railway rather extensive. He thought 25,»o /.,or 30/100/. ought to be sufficient for a line of railway for light engines similar to those usvd between St. Kilda and Melbourne. The scheme of the hon. member for West Torrens would meet with favor from the present Government. He thought it quite possible that before long a scheme would be laid before the House for a railway to the North. It would be far better to pay 2,0 0/ per year in the shape..of guarantee than,±o burden themselves with the interest and redemption of bonds. The traffic would, he believed, be largely increased ita light railway was laid down between Adelaide and Glenelg. People have seen the diffi- culty of getting back from the Bay when they have got down there, and a ailway would be looked uponas a great advan- tage. There were many people who would come hundreds of miles for the sake ot enjoying the benefit of the sea air. Not merely were the interests of the citizens concerned, but other interests also, in giving facilities of communication geneially. (Hear, hear.;

Mr. LINDSAY rose to support the motion, He thought the hon. member for the Murray, D-. Wark. was slightly m error as to the question of redeeming interest and redemption of bonds. There could be 110 interest or bonds to be I redeemed under this scheme. The only expense the country ¡ might be put to would be a guarantee of a certain amount of ' interest for a certain number of years. The Treasuier had

said that the Government could raise money at five per cent., but he forgot that in that case they had to pay back the prinoipal. In this case he did not think a company would be found to lay out the capital on such a work for five per cent. He believed this would be sure to be a remunerative work, and the guarantee would never be required. This railway would be a great benefit in a sanitary point of view. He knew many parties who would go to reside at the Bay during the summer months, but their means would not admit of it. The establishment of this easy means of transit would be sure to increase the traffic to the Bay. He hoped

the Government would reconsider their decision regarding '

the five per cent.

Mr. MAGAREY would support th.i motion. He thought theie should be some limit as to the number of years during which the guarantee was to be piid. (Hear.) Bethought 10 years was too shoit. He did not agree with the Treasurer regarding a light line of railway. He thought they wanted a line of railway capable of carrying heavy engines and car- riages, so that the stock could be made use of on other lines in the event ota break-down. The establishment oí a rail- way he believed would induce many parties to make the Bay a place of summer residence. He would confidently support the motion.

Mr. PARKIN would support the motion, though he thought the time for payment of the guar- antee should be fifteen years instead of ten. He thought the establishment of this line would have a ten- dency to stir up the dormant energies of the colony. (Laughter.) They were getting stagnant, and wanted a long pole to stir them up. (Oh, anti laughter.) He was sure, as facilitating communication with the sea side, it would_ be very beneficial to the community ; and many would lie in- duced during the summer months to stay a few nights at


Mr. GRUNDY said it could hardly be expected that he should sit still while a matter was beingdiscussediu which he might almost say quorum pars magna fui1-and nlore espe- cially when the hon. member, Mr- Morphett, had done him the honor of referring so handsomely to his, Mr Grundy's previous labors. Indeed, the documents which had been re- ferred to were in his own handwriting. (Hear, hear.) It had been said that this scheme was only for the benefit of landjobbers, and so forth. That might be true, but it was a scheme of public benefit, and it was nothing to him whether the most selfish man in creation was to make a fortune by it Such a consideration would not weigh with him in supporting the mo- tion. It would not, however, have the effect of running up the price of land to such a fabulous extent as might be imagined. It would, perhaps, increase the number of marine cottages erected, but building at Kensington and Norwood would still progress the same»s heretofore. It was a scheme in which everyone was more or less interested. Why, if this railway was established, pal ties would be abla to stay at Glenelg, and reach Kapunda by early trains in time for business. (Cheers ) The rising geneation, especially, would benefit by the establishment of this railway, audit was therefore a scheme which must interest all parents, and they should not therefoie higgle about wool. He di-1 not approve of the suggestion to have a light line of railway, butto have a good substantial line He would like to see the time extended to 12 or 15 years at the vei y least. He was sorry he had not considered this matter more or he would have been prepired with statistics. The lailway would be a gieat benefit, und people would Le able to realise during the summer season the lines of the poet Cowper

' "-When all agree

With one consent to rush Into the sea?"

Mr. TOWNSEND was sorry the hon. member for Barossa had neglected his duty in not reading up to prepare himself to discuss this motion. He hoped the House would agree to the suggestio of the Governme t Large numbers of per- sons went to the Bay in the summer months, and gwaf difficulties were experienced in returning. The general orders given to proprietors of vehicles on holidays were, to charge 2s, 6d. down, and then the people who were taken there, had often to 1 ay f om 4s. to 8s., or even as much as los. to get back. He was certain a railway would be remunerative. He would suggest in such a case »hat the money voted should not be laid ut upon the main road. If the hon. member would amend his motion, he woul 1 support it.

Mr SUTHERLAND would support the motion. He would, however, suggest that a fixed rate of interest should be paid, say 2,500?. tor 15 instead of io years. The railway would, he believed, prove a great public benefit.

The COMMISSIONER OF PUBLIC WORKS was happy to see that lion, members so generally approved of giving to the public improved facilities for getting to the Bay. He believed that large numbers would go down in the summer season. He had no objection to leave the Govern- ment to fix the rate of interest to be given under the guarantee, but a limit should be fixed, say 2,000/. or 2,500/. ; but the House should not guarantee interest on any amount spent, or they might have to pay 10,0011/. a-year. (Hear.) There must be an aggregate amount fixed; and also a specified service for it. Let these two points be secured; and there would then be no harm in leaving the rest open for the Government to arrange. This proposal for a railway to be carried out by a piivate company, was but a beginning ; probably a similar application for a tramway from Port Augusta to the Northern mines would soon follow. Ile trusted this colony would be warned by the mistake made in connection with th<» Geelong Railway. Let it be clearh understood that the Government only undertook to make up the dividend to a certain su<n, and this only on condition of certain trains running. ( Hear. )

Mr. A. B LYT H, as this matter would be re-discuss, ed when the Bill was introduced, felt little inclination to go fully into it now. The lion, member for Onkaparinga, however, had spok«-u of enormous charges made by omnibuses to and from the Bay, but he. Mr Blyth, knew that the fare to and fiom the Bay was is. 6d., unless they preferred to íide behind a very "flash"' driver-(laughter)-when it was ia. each way. He was sure the project ori- ginated in most philanthropic motives. He was sure the holders of shares in the new railway would thiuk little of profits-(laughter)-but a great deal of the health of the citizens, and the little ones-(laughter)-and as there would, no doubt, be some competition against the railway they could not be looking out for profits. (Laughter.) It was, however, yei-v singular that there never was a railwuv sciiem.- launched that did not promise to be very lucrative, hut owing to stukers, or Secretary, or Directors, or somebody, it did not usually turn out quite so well. (Laughter.) There was another point. The Main Roids Bill -(hear, hean-contained a cert lin sohedule - (hear)-and it this railway was completed, he presumed the road to tin Bay would be expunged from the schedule of main roads and that was one recommendation It would be chiefly a line for passengeis. not goods-but he thought it desirabl theie sh uld be one uniform guage so that «he carriages and engines on one line might suit for all the rest. Then all the population accommodated and might go down to the beach, and gambol together in nakedness (Roars 01 laughter.) As for himself-daughter;-he usually on thosu

aitractive occasions went in another direction. (Hear.)' He was quite willing to seo the " dormant energies" of the country revived, and the wives and little ones of the people of Adelaide-(pathetically referred to)-exhilarated ; and more than that, he highly appreciated the disinterested and magnanimous intentions of the promoters of this great pro-

ject. (Hear, and laughter.)

Mr. COLE hoped the Treasurer's amendment was not opposition to the motion, though he feared it was, as Mr Liudsay had said that if carried it would be fatal to the scheme. (No, no. He should like to see the work com- pleted, as there were now very few public works, and in a Short time a large amount of unemployed labor wo Id be thrown iuto the market. It had been recently said that if a guarantee of 6 per cent, was granted, a company might b induced to construct public works, and this wou.d savi much suffering and dest tution ; bnt he was afraid less favor- able terms would not succeed, and he should like to give this guarantee with 15 or 2 . years as a limit.

Mi. DUFFIELD m 13- vot-' or the am»mlmen's of the Trea-urer, and if these were lost, vote against the motion

The lion, member, Mr. Morphett, would not have given th . figures he had if he had gone more clos»ly in 10 the subject. He said 40,000/. would make »he Hue, and yet lie looked for 3,00 I. a year to guarantee 6 per cent on 40,n '0 ! If the House went as far as 2,000/ the' would be providing 6 per cent, for nearly the whole amount He should be gla.i to see English capital come in for such purpose, not only for this line, but for other works in other parts of the province Ha doubted, however, whether this line, whioh would be under the control of a private Company, could be worked with the lines now under the Government. On the present lines there was a great want of regularity, and it was only that morning that he had seen a gentleman who had been sitting in acarriage 20 minutes after the time for starting had passed. (Hear.) Perhaps he had better not go into the

subject. (Hear hear.)

Mr. SAN 10 would support the motion with the amend- ments of the Treasuier. The work was one of public utility, and if access to the sea were more cheiply afforded, multitudes would avail themselves of its invigorating influences, who were now unable to do so. There would be a great saving in time, in labor, and iu money, and many persons in the humble walks of life would reap the advantage. It had been supposed that heavy en- gines could not run on a cheap line, but he contended that a cheap line could be laid, yet so as to carry the present engines. All that was needful was to have the same guage. He hoped the motion would be carried. (Divide.)

Mr MORPHETT would not detain the House in reply. He wap most happy to have submitted a motion which could even make the lion, member for Gumeracha forget his gravity, and expatiate upon naked gambollers on the beach No doubt, as the lion member said, he on such occasions so ight umbrageous shades elsewhere, where he could muse on the past, and form plans for the future. ("Laughter.) The lion, member for the Murray, Dr Wark, had also spoken on this occasion, aud had opposed the motion ; but suppose he waited pro- fessionally on ¡mold man; he would say-"What's the matter wi'ye, mon?" (Loud laughter.) "Go to the Bay." But the old man would ask, how he was to get there? Or, per- il «ps lip would be called to visit a lady in an interesting situ- ation - (laughter)-and would tell her that she required bracing up (Oh, oh.) How was she to get that bracing air so necessary? He was willing to adopt Mr. Sutherland's proposal, leaving the rate of interest to be fixed by the Go vernraent but he begged of the Treasurer to mak- the limit fifteenyeais-Cin'tyou? (Loud laught'r.) Must it be ten? (Laughter.; Well, he would take that ; say, 2,500/, aud teu years. (Hear, and laughter.)

Mr. DUFFIELD understood the amount was fixed at 2,i 00/, »nd could not consent to more.

Jlr. TOWNSEND would certainly have to oppose the amen iment as proposed by the Treasurer, who had evidently been carried away by the eloquence of the hon. member lor West Torrens. He, Mr. Townsend, considered that the maximum time should be fixed ut io years, and the guarantee at the rate of 5 per cent per annum. If the Treasurers amendment was proposed, he should leeloompelled to pro- pose a further amendment. He did not give his support to the resolution, simply that a line of railway might be made to Glenelg, but to carry out a general principle which had been adopted by that House.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL remarked that the general principle embodied in the resolution, was the matter which he had to discuss ; the details of particular schemes must of course be left till they were submitted to the House.

Mr DUFFIELD would ask if the Committee were dis- cussing the amendment.

The CHAIRMAN stated that no amendment had been proposed, but simply a suggestion made.

Mr. LINDSAY remarked that only a short time since the House had affirmed a resolution, which fixed 21 years as the limit of the guarantee-, and the guaranteed rate of interest, C per cent But the House 1 ow seemed disposed to turn round and stultify itself. Some hon. members, who had voted for the resolution, which fixed 'he time and rate of interest which he had quoted, were now supporting a proposition totally different-a proposition which he would venture to say would not, if carried out have any effect whatever in drawing capital for a Glenelg railway, or any other public work Railways and tramways might be pro- posed for either the north or the south ; but at such a rate of interest ns that sought to be fixed, he repeated that no capital would, in his opinion, be forthcoming for their con-


.Mr. GLYDE would remind the lion member for Encounter Bay that the resolutions to which he had referred contained no allusion whatever either to the rate of interest or the length of time for which any guarantee should be given. He, Mr. Glyde, cjuld not support a resolution which left the rate of interest open and uncertain If such a reso- lution were passed it could have no value whatever, for the very first question which any man of business on the Stock

Exchange would ask, on-being- applied -to -by the promoters of any scheme, would be respecting the rate of ^interest guaranteed. He mu«t insist upon the mention in the reso- lution ,of a guarantee of 5 per cent.

Mr. N. BLYTH remarked that the hon. member for Encounter Bay, Mr. Lindsay, had referred to a former reso- lution to endeavor to show that this House would stultify, itself by affirming a resolution which fixed a guaranteed rate of inleiest at 5 per cent. ; but he, Mr. Blyth, on referring to the records of the House, could tell the hon. member that no such a decision as that referred to by him was ever agreed to. The hon. member for Yatala, Mr. Glyde, had put the caso very fairly, and he fully concurred in the views which he had expiessed. ne would fix the vote of guaranteed interest at 5 per cent, limiting the time to 10 years. In the event of i Glenelg Railway being proposed, care should be taken that certain conditions were guaranteed to' the public by its pro- moters. (Hear, hear.) That was a point of great impor- tance. He confessed t hat he did not regard the construction of a railway to Glenelg as a very important matter. Such a work would not open any new source of wealth, though lie should not object to seeing it carried out under certain limi-


The TREASURER could not agree with the remarks made by the hon. member for Encounter Bay, Mr. Lindsay, who should have borne in mind that that House were bound by its solutions only, and not by the speeches of the hon. members If the rate of interest were left open the Govern- ment could notify the rate according to circumstances, and alter the rate of interest if it chose. He would propose a limitation of 2,500/. per annum. He had been accused of yielding to the solicitations of the lion, member for West Torrens-of graciously acqu escing in his request. (Liughter.) Th»re was one point, however, which he was not disposed to yield, and that was the period to be fixed at which the guarantee should cease. He would say that 10 years was the utmost limit to which he was disposed to go. and he would, therefore, move an amendment to the follow-

ing effect

"That the guarantee be for 10 yesrs, at a rate of interest to be fixed by the Government, but the guarantee not to exceed in the aggregate 2,500f. per annum." (Hear, hear.;

Mr. DALE would support the proposition of the lion, member for West Torrens, as he considered it necessary that the House should do all in its power to meet the require- ments of the working classes, who were now, he regretted to, say, requiring employment. Inthepresentstateofthecoloniál"

funds it was desirable to encourage the introduction of capital by affirming such a resolution as that proposed. The public at large would be benefitted by the construction of such a woik as a railway to Gienelg, and he was glad to s»e that the House was of one mind in the matter. He consi deied that the guarantee should be extended to 15 years, which was not too long, and he woul support the 6 per cent, guarantee. He trusted that the carriages at present in use would, by the construction of the new line, be adapted to run upon it, and also that a cheap rate of fares be adopted as they weie indispensable to a large tiaffic.

Mr. TOWN-END objected to the compromise which the Treasurer hal made. It was decidedly a bad one. He should propose, as a further amendment, to strike out the words after "rate " on the sixth line, and insert thereof the words " of 5 per cent, per annum for a period not exceeding io years." He agreed with the remarks made by the hon. member for East Torrens, Mr Blyth, in his opinion respect- ing the former resolution passed by that House. The reso- lution alluded to fixed neither time nor date, nor aggregate sum. It was highly important to name in the resolution the rate of interest guaranteed, or otherwisejt might

difficulties at a future time.

Mr. GLYDE would support the amendment of the hon. member for Onkaparinga, Mr. Townsend. It was highly important to insert in the resolution the rate of interest guaranteed, otherwise the resolution would be of no value, and would go for nothing in England, where capital would,

doubtless, be looked for.

Mr. O VV EN agreed with the general principle involved in the resolution, and would support the amendment of the hon. member for Onkaparinga in preference to the compro- mise offered by the Treasurer. The principal argu- ment which he had heard advanced in form of a railway -to Glenelg. was of a sanitary cnara - ter. The lion, members, in using that argument, had forgotten the fact that a railway already existed, which had a terminus only one mile and a half distant from the sea beach He should support the amendment of the bon. mem- ber fur Onkaparinga, which would doubtless be carried ; but he would repeat his conviction that no necessity had been shown for a line of railway to Glenelg.

Mr. DUFFIELD was sorry to vote against the Govern- ment, but he felt that he must support the amendment of the hon. member for Onkaparinga. The Treasurer had evi- dently gone round from the op nion which he had expressed, in order to yield to the entreaties of the lion, member for West Torrens, Mr. Morphett The Treasurer had expressed his conviction that the cost of constructing a line of railway to Glenelg would not exceed 30,00 /., a 5 per cent, guaran- teed interest on which would only amount to 1,5 0/. ; and yet at the same time he had fixed a maximum amount of 2,500£, a sum larger by l,?mil. than that asked for. - , .

Mr. DUNN regretted that the Treasurer hid given way to the hon. number for West Torrens. He should feel com-

pelled to go with the hon. member for Onkaparinga in his


Mr. COGLIN would support the amendment of the Treasurer. It was necessary to construct railways and other public works, which could not be done without foi eign capital, and foreign capital could not attracted by the rate of interest proposed by the hon. member for Onkaparinga.


Mr. GRUNDY would say a few last words. He could not agree in the opinion which his lion, colleague had expressed respecting the line of oonduct which the Treasurer had pur- sued. He could not coincide in the doctrine that a minister m st be bound down to an expressed opinion, and not be at liberty, like other hon. members of tnat House, to modify it after being convinced by arguments used during a debate. He considered that such a course as that pursued by the Treasurer was not such as should lay him open to censure, but should on the other hand have gained him praise, for it proved a good feeling, which was highly creditable. Ii debates had no influence on the opinions of hon. members it was a waste of time and money to sit in that House, which might as well be locked up. When the Glenelg Railway promoters brought forward their scheme, it would be neces- sary to obtain a guarantee from them as to-the number of trains to run, which should not be less than six per day in summer, and three in winter. The guaranteed interest should only be paid in the event of the undertaking paying a dividend under 5 per cent. Small engines were to tie avoided, as doubtless in the summer time larne trains w >uld be laid on, requiring large engines. He would limit the period of th guarantee to io years, to da e from'opening of ti e line. He advocated the making of the line on sanitary grounds, ne believed it would b&suigeneris in'its character -(laughter) and would carry out Cowper's idea when " All 'tgw with one cousent, to rush into the sea." (Hear, hear, and laughter.)

Mr. LINDSAY remarked that the discussion had merged into one r, speeling a former resolution passed by that House.

That resolution doubtless affirmed -

The CHAIRMAN-The hon. member is not in order in discussing a former resolution in the -manner he is doing.


Mr. LINDSAY would state that in order to induce English capitalists to invest in the public works of the ..olony, nothing less than 6 per cent, guaranteed for 21 years would attract them. By reducing the rate of Interest to 5 per cent, and limiting it to io years, tiley simply annulled a resolution ofthat Hiuse, and prevented the introduction of that capital whirn rhey needed.

The TREASURER stated that ho should as a matter of course suppoi t his own amendment, ann if it was lo»t, he should then go for the amendment, of the lion. m?ra byr for Onkaparinga. (Laughter.) He had had some- thing to do with railways -, but he could not positively state that the railway could be made for less than was stated

iy the hon. member for West 'Torrens, though he thought it could. (Divide.) .. ? ?

The amendment, of the lion, member for Onkaparinga, Mr. Townsend, was* then put, and declared by the .Chairman ro lie lost, upon which a division was called for, which" re-

sulted as follows :

AYES. 15 -The Attorney-General, Treasurer, Commissioner »f C own Lands, Commissioner of Publio Works, " Messrs. Coglin, Cole, Dale, Grundy, Hallett, Lindsay. Magarey, Parkin, Peacock, Sutherland, and .Morphett (teller).

? NOES. 8 -Messrs. A. Blyth, N. Blyth, Duffield, Dunn, Glyde. Owen, Santo, and townsend (teller),

Leave was then granted to the lion, member for West Torrens to amend his motion, which then read th >s : -

." That when and so soon as any persons (whether forming ,i company or otherwise; shall give proof, to the satisfaction of the Government that they are construct a line of locomotive railway, from a point oh'the present,Port Railway, to be agreed upon, to a terminus at or near the Glenelg Jetty, such new railway to be commenced at a .late, and to be completed within a period to he named-it is expedient that the Government shall'guarantee'to such persons or company an inteiest on the capital expended at a rate to be fixrd. and for a period not exceeding' ten years, ?irovided» that such guarantee should not extend to 'an .«.mount exepoding 2.5»oi. per annum. ' " '

Mr. GLYDE thee proposed an addition to the resolution of the following words, '» provided that the amount paid shall not exceed ö per cent per annum."

The motion as amended was then put and carried.

The House then resumed, the Chairman reported progress, and the îeport was agreed to.

The other business on the paper was arranged for sub- sequent days, and the House adjourned. - "