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LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Wednesday, October 4.  

The PRESIDENT (Sir J. L. Stirling) look the chair at 2 p.m.


The Hon. J. VARDON asked if, after looking into section 2 of the Factories Further Amendment Act of 1904, the Chief Secretary was still of opinion that the regulations laid upon the table were not   conflict with the statute ?

The CHIEF SECRETARY said that opinion was partly correct and part incorrect. The exact position was that the boards elected to determine the lowest price to be paid for articles connected with the manufacture of clothing, including white work, to any woman, young persons, child or boy between 16 and 21 years of age, need not be registered employes, but the boards to determine the lowest price to be paid to any other person or classes of persons, or for any other class of work. must consist of registered employes. In

other words, the provisions of section 13 of Act No. 752 of 1900 were only varied by the later Act, No. 872 of 1904, as regarded women, young persons, children, and between 16 and 21, and only then as regarded articles connected with the manufacture   of clothing, including white work.  

The Hon. J. VARDON said, seeing that regulation No. 24 did conflict with the Act, would the Chief Secretary withdraw  


The CHIEF SECRETARY said hewould   look into the matter.

The Hon. E. LUCAS asked if, when the Act was passed, it were contemplated that registered employers on the one hand and registered employes on the other should constitute the wages board appointed

for a trade ?

The CHIEF SECRETARY said the only variation made was the very thing Mr.

Lucas supported last year. The Act of 1904 stipulated that other than employes in any particular trade could act on the wages board.

The Hon. E. LUCAS said, notwithstanding that, was it not a fact that that  

vision was inserted to meet the contingency that where employes would not nominate representatives on the wages board yhe

Government should step in and do it for them ?

The CHIEF SECRETARY said he could   not tell what was in the minds of members when the Act was passed last year.  



The Hon. J. LEWIS asked if the attention of the Chief Secretary had been called to a question asked in the Assembly on Tuesday, to the effect that certain men

in the employ of the Government charged boys exorbitant rates of interest for money lent them, and would they investigate the matter and dismiss those men ?


noticed the reply of the Premier to question, which was that if Mr. Smeaton would give the names of the men

privately he would have the matter looked


The Hon. J. LEWIS asked if the   Government would insist upon the names of the men being disclosed.

The CHIEF SECRETARY said the   Government had no power to do that,

could not insist upon any member of Council giving him any information.  



The Hon. B. A. MOULDEN asked- Is it the intention of the Government in future surveys, and in naming hundreds, to' ships, and railway stations, to adopt tive names in preference to those

members of the Legislature or Governm


The CHIEF SECRETARY replied-r. present practice will be continued.


The Hon. J. WARREN asked-Is it intention of the Government to urge Federal Government to fix the time for

next Federal elections before harvest til co that persons engaged in agriculture n be able conveniently to record their vot , The CHIEF SECRETARY replied-! Government recognise that harveit time not suitable for this State, and will nu representations to the Federal au^horit accordingly.


f The Hon. G. BROOKMAN asked Is it the intention of the Government ask for the approval of Parliament to 1 plans and specifications of the River M: ray barrage? (2) If approval is given, it the intention of the Government co p «eed with the work? '



Clause 4. "When apportioned part pt

able or recoverable."

The CHIEF SECRETARY said since t Bill was previously before the Councd

had made a comparison between it and t Imperial statute, and found they differed eeveral respects. The Government hi prepared a number of.r amendments,

which he believed Mr. Moulden wou


The Hon. B. A. MOULDEN said he o tained a copy of this Bill in Sydney fro Ithe Attorney-General of New South Wale who' said it was merely an adaptation

.the English law. The Chief Secretarj I amendments would make the measure a /plicable to the neeels of the present m \ ment, and having gone through them 1 would accept them. SIR JOHN DOWNE also agreed to the amendments.

The CHIEF SECRETARY moved in Ih 10 to leave out "forms part becomes" ar insert instead i'sho'dd form part shall b


\ Carried, and ciaría as amended passed.

Clause 5 and 6 parsed.

' Clause 7. "Contracting out."

The CHIEF SECRETARY moved I ? «trike out "has been before or after ti . commencement of this Act," and insert n stead "is or shall be."

s Carried, and clause as amended passed.

Postponed" clauses-Clause 2. "Denn ¡tiona."_

The CHIEF SECRETARY moved to sul ?titute "shall be" for "are" in line 7. ^ Carried:_

The CHIEF SECRETARY moved to ii 1 bert "shall be" for "is" in line 12.

Carried, and clause as amended passed.

Clause 3. "Apportionment of rents in n epect of time."

The CHIEF SECRETARY moved to ii Bert at the beginning of the clause "Froi and after the passing of this Act."

The CHIEF SECRETARY moved t 'leave out "executed before or after th commencement of this Act" in lines 3 an 4. and in line 4 "reserved or made pas


A. Carried, and clause as amended passed.

Title passed. Bill reported and repot adopted; third reading Wednesday next.


Adjourned debate on the motion of the Hon. E. Lucas- "That, in the opinion of this Council, a charge of 10 per cent, to cover interest and depreciation should be added to all Government departmental   estimates and tenders, and that tenders be called for all new work whether chargeable

to loan or revenue."

The Hon. J. G. BICE, in resuming the  

debate, said on reflection Mr. Lucas would see the necessity for striking out the last part of his motion, or, at least, of not pressing  

it to a division. The proposition that   tenders should be called for all Government work was ridiculous, for a half-a-   crown job under that would be placed in the same category as a £50,000 contract. The Railways Commission recommended that all works of magnitude should be tendered for, and that was quite as far as anyone could go in this respect, for so many small things were required from time to time, and there would be no limitation at all to tendering if Mr. Lucas; proposal were carried. He wanted to discuss this question calmly and from the point of view of the economical working of the railways. This was not a party question at all, for the railway was the principal common carrier of the State, and, therefore, party politics   should not apply, in the matter at all.   If the great producing interests of this State were to be conserved, the running of this great concern, hot only in its ordi- nary sense, but the obtaining of supplies for it, must be got as cheaply as possible. He wanted the subject discus*ed from a business point of view, and the Railways Commissioner should be placed on exactlj the same footing as the manager of ans of the great private railways in tho world. It was a custom in nearly every case for the great railways of the old country to make their own stock, while he believed that was the universal custom in many of the English railways. He did not want to be uncharitable, but ho believed Mr. Lucas moved the resolution without sufnciently informing ' himself of the facts. The speech delivered by Mr. Lucas led him to believe the hon. member was more con- cerned about outside people tbanabout the interests of the Radway Department, and the statements he made might be cnarae> terised as uncharitable. Mr. Lucas had been speaking not more than two minutes when he fell into an error with respect to the time during which the 10 per cent, had - been, put on to tenders. He said it had

been imposed for only four years, whereas > it had been in operation for a hWe«« J Hueseara ont* fMr, ¡Luca^^a^ía,

splitting hairs.") In matters of the kind it was advisable to stick closely to absolute facts. (Mr. Lucas-"The term I used wru 'about four years.' ") It had also been said that outside tenderers added from li to 22J per cent, to their tenders lo covei interest and other charges, and the state- ment required careful consideration and more evidence before they should accept it as proved. _ There was absolutely no prooi that the private firms added such a percen- tage to their tenders. (Mr. Vardon "They must add something."') Yes. and ht would be able to show that tliev provided for a fair amount of profit. The private firms got a fair thing out of the Govern- ment iu connection with contracts, judg- ing from the prices at which the same work could be carried out at Islington. The time when the 10 per cent, was first added was when the famous boiler contract was entered into. Tenders for bailers were in- vited in May, 1002, and prior to that Mr. Jenkins, the Premier, made it known that in future the Islington works would add 10 per cent, to tenders. (Mr. Lucas-"He did not say anything about 10 per cent.") They had tbe evidence of the Government officials on the subject. . When it had been made known that the 10 per cent, was to be added the first tender was interesting. For a job which Islington offered to carry out for £14,000, an outside tenderer wanted £17,000, and on the difference being pointed out the outside tenderer offered to reduce his price by nearly £2,000. in those circumstances the Chief Mechanical Engineer advised that the outside ten- der should be accepted, the reason being that he wanted the boilers in a hurry. (Mr. Vardon-"The 10 per cent, was added to the departmental tender.") . Yes. Con- siderable additions were made to the ten- der, but still the outside contractor was 20 per cent, above the departmental estimate. The Chief Mechanical Engineer wrote to the Railways Commissioner, as follows: "Re the tender of Messrs. James Martin and Co. for loco, boilers. This tendefc is 20.35 per cent, higher than the departmen- tal tender, and is, therefore, in my opinion, excessive. I made allowance in my esti- mate for salaries and travelling expenses ot the official and clerical staff, foremen, un der-forcmen, office messenger, and care faker, office furniture, stationery and print- ing, and general office expenses, fuel, lubri- cants, waste, and all stores for working shop engines and machinery, water, sewer- age, insurance, wages of stationary engine men, horse shunters and watchmen, wages of laborers not directly chargeable to par- ticular jobs, holiday, sick, and injury pay lo all workshop hands, repairs and renewals of tools and machinery, forage for horses, cost of unloading, storing and issuing stores, as well as a percentage for covering the chief storekeeper's charges, and an ad- ditional percentage to meet interest on the capital outlay for buildings and machinery, rates and taxes, and interest on money lay- ing idle in stores, and wages while the work is in progress. I also added to the gross cost of the work, including all the foregoing items, a further 10 per cent, for contingencies. The departmental estimate ia a liberal one; it is therefore simply a question as to what is a fair trade profit that should be allowed for distribution amongst the proprietary of an outside business. Seeing that Messrs. Martin & Co.,   in their letter of the 17th inst., offer to   reduce their tender by 10 per cent., I recommend acceptance; but the penalty clause   for breach of contract, and the   delivery of the boilers at Islington, instead of Gawler, should be insisted on. The contractors had the benefit of the Government as suppliers of stores for making the boilers. The Government   supplied all of the copper used, and all the contractors had to do was to send a request to the Government storekeeper, and,   subject to their paying the freight to Gawler, the goods were forwarded. (Mr. Lucas "Have Martín & Co. never supplied the Government with material when thev have run short?") That was outside the question. The whole of the material required   was supplied by the Government. (Mr. Lucas- "Question.") The hon. member had entered into the debate on the question without having made himself acquainted with the details, which had been put into print, and had not been denied. The Government were prepared to carry out the work, after making allowances of 20 per cent, for small charges and 10 per cent, for contingencies, at a hgure 20 per cent, lower than the private contractor. With refe- rence to the tender under discussion, he thought the present Government made a mistake in not allowing it to go on as at first arranged. The tenders were called for on June 22, and were returnable in August, when the new Government came into office, and they made a mistake m not allowing the thing to go on and placing the respon- sibility on those who were really respon- sible. They should have allowed the 10 per cent, bonus to have gone on, and not permitted themselves to he placed in the position they occupied ac present in regard to the matter. Judging from the corre- spondence on the files, he thought it was with the advice of the officers that the Government took the stand they did. Mr. Langman, the accountant, wrote to the Chief Mechanical Engineer as follows: "The tenders for building the 40 class W. 3 ft. 6 in. gauge, 25-ton steel bogie waggons have been noted. The tender of Messrs. James Martin & Co., Limited, at £189 per waggon is lower than the departmental tender at £201 10/6 per waggon, the latter quotation showing an advance of 6.62 per cent, upon Martin & Co.'s price. It should be borne in mind, however, that in the departmental price £17 9/ has been included for tendering purposes only to cover interest on   buildings, machinery, and plant, rates, taxes, &c., so that if this amount were   deducted the departmental price would then be £184 1/6, or £4 18/6 per waggon: less than Martin & Co.'s tender. As to the custom of private firms adding from 10 to 22J per cent, for interest on plant and buildings, the statement deserved con- sideration from the point of view of the cost of work previously done. He found that Islington built two class Y engines, and for precisely similar engine built by Martin & Co. the price put down for wages was £1,530, and the cost of the engine supplied by Martin & Co. was £2,951, whereas the Islington cost of the same class engines was £2,839. The amount received of that £2,951 over and above the cost for wages and materials for

the Islington engines worked out.

just 20 per cent, on the total eos (Mr. Vardon-"But that is with the 10 per cent. added ?') That did not enter into the calculation at all. He was endeavoring to show that there could be no such char¡ added by the private manufacturer, ar therefore it ivas not necessary to be add« by the Ixicoraptive Department, so as i place them on the same footing. (M Lucas-"It is no use arguing that the pi vate manufacturer does not add it. I must add it or become insolvent.'') J did not chink there was any likelihood i that happening. It -«-as perfectly clc: that there ivas only an amount of aboi £360 profit, and that on the bare wagt and cost of materials meant about 20 pi cent. He would see what the cost to ti department would be if the locomotn were built according to the docket Mr. Va don had referred to when he spoke. The could take the wages as £1,530; add t that 30 per cent, for expenditure and she charges, making £459. The materials wou! cost £862, and the 2J per cent, for stoi charges would amount to £21. They wei told that there must be an additional ] per cent., and when also an additional

per cent, for contingencies was added, ; was seen that 45 per cent, had been adde to the wages, and 17J per cent, to the m. tenais, malling a total of £3,320. Tha was altogether £900 over the bare cost < wages and materials. Was that a bas ness proposition upon which any firm cou! hope to secure trade? It was nothing bv sheer idiocy to expect business on such

basis. Mr. Vardon had stated that th docket either he or a previous Ccinmi: sioner of Public Works had endorsed coi taincd the particulars for those chargei He could not see how the interests of th public, the economical management of rail ways and low rates of freight, could po: sibly be secured under those condition: Mr. Lucas had run away with the idea tha that 10 per cent, was all that was addei on the cost of wages and materials. (Th Cliief Secretary-"Of course he was." Mi Lucas-"Nothing of the sort.") Anothe aspect upon which he wished to satisf; them was that not only was the work don cheaper at Islington, hut better. It wa more durable, less costly to keep in repaii and more satisfactory to keep up. ("Mr. Vardon- "The Chief Mechanical Engineer said that Martin's work in that department was excellent, and that he had n<   fault to find with it.") He had noticed that the Chief Mechanical Engineer had made a statement that the work was very good. With the view of testing that state ment he had asked the Locomotive   Engineer to supply the Railways Ccmmission with a detailed statement as to the work   done by the two class "Y" engines made at Islington and the two best similar locomotives made by Martin & Co. A statement   ment was worth nothing without the   results of actual experience. For the purposes of the test they took the last two   engines made by Martin & Co. as being the best. The test on the details of the worl done was the one used in the best Ame rican shops. The figures he would quo« were to be found in the Railways Comm s sion's report as supplied by the Locomotiv« Engineer. Martin s engines were Nos. 175 and 176, and the Islington engines Nos. 178 and 179. The Islington engines ran 90.230 miles and 92,934 mues respectively during the first three years, and Martin's engines 68,328 miles and 81,935 miles respectively during the same period. (Mr. Lucas "That proves nothing. We want these statements from impartial men.") The Islington engines were only out of work 851 days altogether, and Martin's engines 903 days. (Mr. Lucas- "Why were Martin's engines out of work ?") They were out of work awaiting repairs. There could be no better or fairer test of an engine or machine than what work could be got out of it and the cost of keeping it mov- ing. (Mr. Lucas-"Were those engines work- ing under the same conditions, and doin¿ the same work?") They were all running on narrow-gauge lines. and doing the same work. (Mr. Lucas-"But one might have been engaged in passenger traffic and another on heavy goods traffic. Train mileage is noth- ing to go by.") The cost of repairs to those two engines amounted m the case of Martin's engines to £776 in the three years, and with the Islington engines to £180. Martin's engines were getting on to the 20 per cent, in repairs. (Mr. Lucas --"That provee nothing") It was the only test that could be applied to locomo- tive engines. (Mr. Lucas-"Can you siy whether these engines were doing exactly the same work?") He was not a drive, and could have no personal knowledge. He had asked for a return that would show the quality of the engines and the dura- bility of the workmanship. He would noc say that the return was not fairly pro- vided. (Mr. Lucas-"It is your biisines? to make quite sure this is a correct re- turn.") Tlie return was based on the best .practice for ascertaining what a locomotive would do. Ho was quite sure the informa- tion given was perfectly reliable. If the extra 10 per cent., as proposed, were added, it would be practically impossible for the department to get a job. They would simply have to load up their con- tracts to a fancy price. He asked hon. members in the interests of the country to reject the motion.

On the motion of the Hon. J. LEWIS, the debate was adjourned until Wednesday




Adjourned debate on second reading.

The Hon. J. VARDON said it had al-

ways seemed to him _ that the_ franchise question was a politician's question rather than a people's question. He was quite sure that as such only was it used during the last election. Even now there was no actual mandate from the constituencies as to any particular reduction of the franchise. The third reading in the Assembly was car- ried bv an actual majority of eight. (The Chief Secretary-"Ten.") Sir Jenkin Coles could not vote and Mr. Blacker was not present, and they knew what his position waa. There were 15 Labor members in the Assembly pledged to the abolition of the Legislative Council, and 11 of them repre- sented the metropolitan area. There were two from another large labor centre, and one from the north and another from the eouth. There were ten in favor of £15, and there weife four for £20, and the

balance, about 13, were for no reaucno:

whatever. (The Chief Secretary-"Yo can't find 13 against any reduction.") Th results would show that that was hoi parties stood. If anybody could get a; absolute mandate from the constituencie with regard to any partitnilar amount, i was more than he could. Still, }ie though they were getting nearer to the time whs instead of there being four parties as noï there would be only two. He gave th Labor Party credit for so distjnetfly defii ing their position on this question. Speali ing in the Town Hall al Unley as leader o the Labor Party, Mr. Price, the presen Premier, delivered himself as follows: "One of the clanks of their lighting plat form was abolition of the Legislative Coun eil; failing that, a determined light to b made for adult suffrage.Thei opponents always said they believed in al sections being equally represented, bu whenever' they had the power their ham was at tile throat of progress and reform and away went the principle they said thei were prepared to give, expression to. Uni by one they had strangled the Liberals o the Legislative Counenl. and to-day it stooe as a monument to intolerance, and a powe winch sought to aggrandise nothing but it self. Then they had the proposal for i £15 franchise. It was said that would b< a step. They were not- asking for steps but for justice. They did not want tile reform on the same basis as was the case with the boy who cut off the cat's tail inch by inch to save it pain. . . . The pro- posal for the £20 franchise should be spurned. . . . Their policy, and th« policy of the country, would be the aboli- tion of tile Legislative Council. In the event of that not being possible they might have to be compelled to be satisfied with adult suffrage." There was no mistaking that language. It was clear and emphatic and it showed the position of the Labor Party elistjnctly. He was obliged to the Premier for his frankness. The Bill had passed the Assembly, ancl^ had been pent on to the Council with the approval or the Labor Party. The Labor Party liad not by any means abandoned that plank in their lighting platform. The Chief Secre- tary, in introducing the Bill, said distinctly it was only an instalment, and was not final. Others had declared, too, that in voting for £15 there was no abandonment of principle on their part. They would not be satisfied until they had abolished the Upper House altogether. This Bill was simply a half- way house, a step towarels better things, and it was said the Labor Party would re- gard it as so much paid on account. There was no mistake about their ultimate aim. The so-called Lihou! Party were aiding the labor Party one step on the road to aboli- tion. What was wanted was a straight-out issue on this craestion-Is the Legislative Council to be abolished? Let there be two camps, one for and t>ne against. Let that question be put to the country, and he said fearlessly that in the country there would be an overwhelming majority in favor of re- taining the Legislative Council. The Legis- lative Council stood co-day on a firmer basis than it had ever stood on before. (The Chief Secretary-Would you agree to a referendum on the question?)Yes. He waa not there to rail against Federation.

Jfe be&ened ttotLEeâçratwa SW»W swi^

out all right. Things would, eventual! find their level, and the gooel t-:en=e of til people would yet pun matters Federal on right basis. The result of Federation f far had produixd so mnch disappoiiitmer that many people were stronger in favc of the Legislative Council to-day than eve they had .been before. What was th« charge laid against the Legislative Council They found that Mr. Price said at Unley -"Whenever they had the power thei hand was at the "throat of progress an reform. The Legislative Council to-da stood a»- a monument to intolerance and

power which sought to aggrandise nothin bur itself." That was elie wilel languag of the leader of the Labor Party, and ther was nothing to justify any such cburgt What reform bael the Legii-lative Counc strangled. The Labor Party claimed tha since their advent to Parliament a long lis of_ Liberal measures had been passed-th Workmen's Liens Act, the Employer! Liability Act, the Workmen's Compensf tion. Act, the State Produce Depot, th State Bank, the Progressive Land anel li come taxes, and early closinet legislation The Chief Secretary-''Was that nor don before the women hael a vote?") Ile eli not know what that had to do with ii (Tho Chief Secretary-It makes all the di: ference.) Were the Early Closinjr ant Workmen's Compensation Acts carried be fore the .alteration of the franchise? Cei tainly not. .The question of the women' vote did not affect the matter one iota

The Labor Party did pot carry those me« sures without the assistance of the Legis Litive Council. (The Chief Secretary "This Uou-=e is differently constituted nois The Council has been made more Conservri rive."') There would have been more Labo members in the Council if they had no been so extravagant in their demands. 1 was because they claimed more than the; had a right to claim that they wer driven out of the representation of th Central district.) The measures of whie the Labor Party boasted had been passe by the Legislative Council, and what just fication was there for the leader of th Labor Party to say that the Labor Part always had its hand at the throat of re I form". Why were the Labor Party no honest, and why/did they not say that wit the aid of the Aibcral Legislative Counc: they had passed these measures. (Mr. Bic -"Tell us when they were passed.") Th Early Closing and Workmen's Compensa tion Acts were passed in 1900. Jt wa hurled at the head of the Legislative pour eil that it was the slaughterhouse of libe ral measures. It was said that part XIX was one of the strangled measures. Par XIX. was passed in the Council, and s. were the wages boards. He admitted tha the Council might have gone further wit] respect to wages boards, but this mucl could be said»that last session the Counci took the first step to appoint wages boards (The Chief Secretary-"See if they go an; further this session.'') The Chief Secre I tary must see that he did not go too fa with the regulations he had brought down He was afraid he had. The present Go vcrnment were doing their best to bclittl the Legislative Council. They had deter mined not to initiate legislation in the CouE eil with the express purpose of saying ; measure was rejected by the Council, am thus belittling that Chamber. That wa not a fair thing to do. There were a num ber of non-contcntioiis measures which thi Government should introduce in the Coun eil. -(Tlie Chief Secretary-"Supposing yoi threw out the Education Bul.") The Coun eil would not throw out any reasonabli measures. Let them take a* number o Bills which it was absolutely necessary ti introduce;-the District Councils, Yennil Destraction, Foods and Drugs, and th Brands Bills. The object of refusing ti introduce these Bills in the Council was ti throw odium on it. What was the posi tion of the Council to-day? Was not thi pledge of a member of the Council as sacre« as the pledge of a member of the House o Assembly? If members were pledged, wer¡ they to violate their pledees because othe: people had passed this Bill? So far as hi was personally concerned he had neve: been absolutely pledged to no reductioi whatever, but he had said from the start t< the finish that he had always been opposée to lowering the franchise of the Council te bring it anywhere near that of the Housi of Assembly, because if they did that thej might as well abolish the Council altogether Last .session the Butler Government pro mised to introduce a Bill dealing with the franchise, and they adhered to it, at anj rate, as far as the Governors speech went They proposed to reduce the rental quali- fication from £25 to £20. The leader oi the Labor Party then said they should spurn the £20 as they spurned it in 1S99, and he rated the £15 men because they were not willing to go further towards theil noa I. He believed in evolutiem, and no1 revolution. If the proposal of the Solomon Government for £20 had been accepted the country by this time might have been ripe for some further reduction. They wanted a different system of representation, so that all parties should be represented according to their strength. That would be much more effective than this Bill. Before he could support this Bill,'even if he thought it right, ne would feel bound to resign and go before his electors. That was the only straightforward and honorable course, for Council members had no more right to violate their- pledges than Assembly mem- bers. There was no getting away from the fact that, even on the present"basis, the Legislative Council was the most Liberal elected Upper House in the Commonwealth. Mr. Duncan had shown clearly and dis- tinctly bv an analysis of the Constitutions of the Legislative Councils in the Common- wealth that the South Australian Chamber was the most democratic and the mosc Liberal of the lot. The question in the first place had to be narrowed down to this "Shall the Legislative Council be abolished?" There could be only two parties on that question, one for and the other against. Let them get that question settled absolutely, and then they could tackle the other one. He was willing to have a referendum on the question. He would be no party to passing this Bill with the full knowledge that it was to be used later on as a weapon with which to de- stroy the Council altogether. _

On the motion of the Hon. J. H. HOWE the debate was adjournetl until next day.

PORT LINCOLN RAILWAY BELL. Adjourned debate on second reaeb'ng.

Tho Hon. H. C. E. MUECKE said that after very careful consideration of all he had heard about this new railway, both in and outside of the House, he had come to the conclusion that he must support the Bill. He compümented the Chief Secretary upon the excellent way in which he intro- duced the Bill, and the lncid and ex- haustive manner in which he dealt with the details. One could almost fancy the pro- posal was his own child. In any case, he appeared to believe thoroughly in the neces- sity of the venture, and he had amply proved his case. Ho was equally anxious with other members not to iurrcase the

public debt of this State unduly, and no to spend money on unproductive publii works, but lie did not understand the latte: to mean that all public works were to bi considered unproductive that did not pro ducc an adequate income immediately 01 their completion. There were times whci in new countries works of devclopmen' were necessary, and they were justifiabh when a reasonable prospect existed that ii tile course of such development the worl itself would become productive. lie classée tile proposed Port Lincoln railway as ; work of this nature. They had ampl< figures placed before them by the Glue! Secretary of the vast tracts of countrj available and . fit for agriculture to bt served by the railway; and they had reasor to bclievo that Mr. Kirkpatrick's state ments were founded on the reports of ex parts that were to be relied upon. His confidence in the project was increased bj the support given to the Bill by the late Government. It was really part of theil policy included in the Governor's speech and lie knew that the members of that Government did not decide upon the worl till alter very careful and very exhaustive enquiry anti examination far more than the present Government had been able to de during the short time they had been ir. office. He considered it had been proved that most of the available land was fit foi agriculture. He knew that a few years back such a statement would have been ridiculed, but the better modes of farm- ing now adopted, and especially the use of superphosphates as manures had completely upset all former theories, and reports liad come to hand that excellent crops were at present maturing on this country. At Tumby Bay something like 30,000 bags of wheat were shipped during last season, all grown on similar country to that to be nerved by the railway. Taking all these facts into consideration, he be lievcel the railway to be justified. He ac- knowledged it to boj to a certain extent, speculative, but ha believed with the pros- pects ahead of it. that it would prove it- self a paying speculation, and would be one of value to the State generally. With re- gard to the port of shipment, it was essen- tial that the railway should be connected with the best port available, offcrinp; the greatest shipping facilities. This would prove itself the cheapest in the end, and of the greatest value to the customers of the railway. There could be no doubt that the proposal to'connect the railway with. Port Lincoln was the best. It was a mag- nificent harbor, equal to aoy in the world. What a different and much more valuable State South Australia would be if it had aharbor like it on the eastern side of St. Vincent gulf. It would be most unwise not to use such accommodation for »hip- ping. He believed when wheat was ship- ped there in large quantities prices would rule equal to those at Port Adelaide, which could not he accomplished at the other ports available. Tumby Bay was too small for oversea shipping, and if made suitable by a jetty extension, it would be too much exposed to the south-easterly winds which were prevalent during the shipping season. Tumby Ray would remain an important coastal port even after the railway was built, and would receive the produce from the country on the eastern side of the range. It could not, however, compare in any way with Port Lincoln. On the west side of tho Eyre Peninsula there were only Coffin Bay and Dutton Bay, both of which wei-o unsuitable for vessels of any size. He -was impressed with the proposal to make the terminus of the railway at Kirton Point, instead of at the present jetty. It would so much facilitate the shipment of the produce. He would also support Mr. Howe in his amendment to strike ont the clause empowering the rail- ways Commissioner to make an extra rate up "to 12i per cent. If the building of the railway were justified, it was wrong lo han- dicap the producers on the western side of Spencer Gulf against those on the

eastern side.

The Hon T PASCOE «aid the time hae "ome "when the second eli-s land of Souti áu-traLa had to be utdised, and de»pit( ill the glowing reports they hid heard o: tne Port Lincoln distuct, the country from what he could glean, and the genera nature of the «-oil, sugge ted that it wa: sccond-cla«« Tt wa» not, he thought equal to much of the land inside Goyder^ line of rainlall, it was good second class land which, with the use of fertih ers could be profitably occupied for agncul tural purposes That was the reasoi ivhy he was supporting the Bill Ex penence had proved that the charactei of sou wa3 not so necessary to bi taken into consideration with the u=e o: artificial manures a» was the ea^o befori tfcey were u*ed, that was with a giver rainfall It was be\ond dispute that then wa« a certain rainfall in this district se that libere was no tear that the future betüement of the district would not be as Buied Thtre was the country bctweet Stansbury and Minlaton, m the Yorke Peninsula district, which for vean Hy idle because it TV as looked upon a3 being ex trcmely poor, but ance the manare« had been utfli«ed it had been settled with pro tic, the producers there making good money out 01 their holding» On the question of a central port, a glance at the plan of the railway would convince them that the port which would be the least expensive to the State m the long run would be Port Lincoln It would be bet ter to make th" radway a little longer aud bring it down to the one port, where the »h pping facilities "were better, than te take it to one of the side ports, where there was not «uch «afety for shipping When the bulk of the wheat of a district tame to any particular point it meant, except just m the three busiest month« oi the year, the grower could get from Id to 12d per bushel more than he could get loi hu produce at other times, beciuse of the competition that prevailed during the periods he referred to. Let them take Ports Germein and Pine Dur- ing the three busiest months of the j ear aftci the harvest they got the same price pc both ports, but during the other nine months the pnces were from id to id a bushel m favor ot Port Pine, because a bigger distnet was drained The same argument would #apply to the bnngmg m

of wheat to one particular port, instead of building jetties all along the coa=tkr*, and having small lots of wheat stored at each The power given to the Railway* Commissioner to impose an additional rate up to LK pa cent was a mistaken policy Uready the railway traffic m certain m Btance-s wa» too high, with the result that the line» were losing a good deal of the traffic they should get, for people were employing cheir teams on the roads to cart their produce, and were competing sue cessfully with the railway That coneL tion of tlungs would apply also in the Port Lincoln distnet if the tariff were matie too high There were jettae» and other places along the coast where load ing would be done it the railway charges were made too high, and the radways would lose the traffic Eronda business point of Mew the 12J per cent proposal was a mistake, for the main object of the Railway « Commissioner *=hould be to make the tariff so cheap that it would be able to compete against any teamsters or car tei> The object shou'd be to encourage people to gather their wheat into one big centre m order to get the best possible pnce for it A good deal had been «aid about the cheapness with which the land had been let there. No farmer had an objection to cheap Land, provided it wa

good While he thought the land was cheap, past Governments had let it go a little too cheaply One particular estate which the Government refused to repurchase for closer settlement w-is the Tiatucka It wa' oFercd foi something under 15/ per ^cre, and they would not take it The estate would not be served much bj the railwav but although the Government re- fused it, it wa» cut up bj pnvate rndivi duals anel «old foi 30/ per acre and the best idea of the value of country could be gathered from the pnce people were wih ing to pa-y for it It was pretty well known that wheie country was thickly timbered, if it was cleared md cultivated its graying capacity improved, and that fact applied to the country on Evre's Peninsula He would support the Bdl because he thought it would be the means oi settling people on the land It would paj bettei to Oo on 11 the country conccrntid than paj an exorbitant pnce for land in oldei distncts

The Hon E LUCAS said that when the proposal was first made he did not look upon it favorabh as the line might or might not p^y, and was something like the Pinnaroo railwa\, and when the Pirhamen larv part\ Malted the Port Lincoln di» tnct he went with an opeu mud for the purpo e of gaining all the information pc «¡hit and then forming his own conclusion ne returned from the di=tnct fa\ orablj im pressed with the possibilities of some por tions of it It waa his good fortune to tra\ el inland with a Mr Cooper, who lived 12 miles from Port Ion coln, and the expen encc that gentleman had had led him (Mr Lucas) to believe that if the country were opened up a man with a moderate, amount of capital could look forward to «uccess it he worked the land properlv It was 13 months since Mr Coopei went on to his rarm, and he had 400 acres under crop, and a portion of the area was looking well

Mr Cooper went over the land with a disc plough, and put m his trop after harrow mg the land Some of the crops the patty saw proini&ed well and he wa» considerably impressed with large portions of the distr tt Koppio, which would bo direct'v »cn ed

off, was one of the best estates repurchas by tile Government. The Taihvay won start from Port Lincoln, and run up peninsula with the sea not a great distan away on either side, and one naturally wc dered whether the trafile would go to t seaboard, and leave the railway with only Finall revenue. Mr. Mortlock, who own land in the district, had told him that

his opinion wheat grown in the hood of Woods farm would all go to Di ton Bay, and be taken to one of the I outporta by ketches. Mr. Mortlock kne the country well, anti his opinion was wor consideration. If the farmers we likely to get a higher price at Port Li coln than elsewhere they would send the produce there, but was it likely that ove sea ships would go to that port for cargoe or that they would get full cargoes thei If by sending their produce to the se board to be conveyed by ketedies to an 01 port, the farmers could get a higher prie it was not likely that they would use ti railway. The railway was going to co about £100,000, and "he was disappoint when he knew that the land sold did n yield sufficient to pay for it. That was oi of the strongest arguments against ti railway. The report of the Railways,Coi missioner was not too favorable. The i -venue during the first three years wou be comparatively small, and a margin wou have to be provided for out of the genei revenue, but the Commissioner pointed o that when the whole of the area was clean and under cultivation the revenue would ! enhanced, and he put it down at £8,0C The expcneliture would probably be £2,4 per year, and interest £3,504. The es1 mate of the Railways Commissioner w reasonable, but the point which indite« him to support the railway was the iri of settling people on the land. They, we conironteel with two propositions. Thi had either to buy back land in settled di tricts or utilise what might bo calle waste lands for the purpose of settlii people, and he thought the policy of spen ing large sums on the repurchase of lar ought to be adopted with extreme cautio Ho felt convinced that it was better

utilise the Crown lands for closer ssttl ment where that could be done than i volve the country in a large sum for i terest on expenditure for repurchases. TI settlers on Eyre's Peninsula would ha' to depend largely on fertilisers, and he b lieved that after the land had been cleare and cultivated its value for grazing pu poses would be greatly enhanced. M Mortlock had expressed the opinion th¡ it would pay to clear the land ana cult vate it. and then let it go back to grazir uses. It bad been a source of anxiety 1 him to know what was best to be don He had given the matter careful consider tion, and would have liked to dels the Bill for a year to see ho the crops this season turned ou He was satisfied in his own conscience th; the b'ne ought to be constructed. Takii into consideration the chancets of succès and of the settlement of a very large an of laud, he felt bound to vote for the me sure. He had been undecided as to whi course he would take, and that was wl he had undertaken the trip. He had con to the conclusion, after listening to all ti speeches, that the advantages outweighe the disadvantages, and he would suppo: the second reading.

Second reading carried.

In committee.

Clauses 1 and 2 passed. Clause 3. "Gauge."

The Hon. J. J. DUNCAN asked if it wei the intention of the Government to ntilis

old rails.

The CHIEF SECRETARY said he b lieved it was.

Clause passed.

Clause 4. "Betterment provision."

The Hon. J. WARREN said this intn duced a new principle. It should hat been brought forward in a separate Bil and shoulel be made to apply to all rai ways. He objected to it, as it penalise the people through whose land the liri went. In many cases a railway runnin through a man's land was a great inconv nience./- It often made the land more di ficult to work by cutting it into small sei tions, there was danger of fire from spark and if it went near the homestead woul prove a great nuisance.

The Hon. G. BROOKMAN thought- ti advantages of a railway sufficiently con pensated the owner of the land.

The Hon. J. G. BICE said the bettermen principle was already provided for in th Lind Clauses Consolidation Act of 1876.

The Hon. E. LUCAS agreed with Mi Warren that the clause involved a very in portant principle. The eliflieulty that pre sented itself was as to who would apprais the value of the benefit that a man derive by the railway passing through his lane and estimate the enhanced value.

The CHIEF SECRETARY said th clause limited the amount of money th owner could claim. As the land was sol at a very low rate, it was too much to e: peet that the Government would give awa the benefit of the railway, too. .

The Hon. J. VARDON said the schedul set out the Acts that were to be read i conjunction with the present Bill, anel 1 those it was provided who should assess th value of the betterment. The clause pre tected the Government from being ovei charged. It was also provided that th owner of the land should not be out o pocket by the construction of the line.

The Hon. J. WARREN said the line rai through some very small blocks near Por Lincoln, and the.line by bisecting then might reduce their value considerably fo residential purposes.

The CHIEF SECRETARY said thi clause plainly set out that if the valuabli blocks of land referred to by Mr. Warr« were destroyed by the railway runniuj through them the Government would hav< to compensate the owners.

The Hon. J. J. DUNCAN asked by wha: process the valuation was arrived at.

The CHIEF SECRETARY could no1 answer off-hand, but he presumed the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act woult operate.

The Hon. B. A. MOULDEN said in nine eases out of ten the valuators adjustec elifferences between the sides, and arrivée at what they deemed to be a fair and jusl price. If, however, the parties could no1 agree, the matter was brought before the Supreme Court. In this particular^instance there was not.mueJi likelihood of L'tigation This clause was an extension of the Rail- way Clauses Consolidation Bill.

The Hon. J. J. DUNCAN would like to know the process resorted to before an appeal to the Supreme Court was made.

The Hon. B. A. MOULDEN said notice was given to the individual to fix the amount, which he did, and after' that he was brought into touch with the valuator acting for the Government. If a satisfac- tory settlement could not be made litiga- tion then ensued, if the parties deemed that necessary.

The Hon. J. LEWIS said the Govern- ment valuator put the price on, and the valuator of the seller met him. Failing a decision, the matter went to an umpire, unless the parties preferred to go to court. He believed it was not intended by the Government to go through townships, as some members imagined, but to go to Kirton Point. He supported the clause.

The Hon. E. LUCAS said they . were establishing a precedent under which a serious injustice might be done to property owners. Supposing a man had a 20-acre block, through which the line ran, the space taken by the railway would be, say, four acres. At £20 an acre, the total value of the property would be £400. The loss of the four acres meant a loss for the time being of £80, but the enhancement of value given to the balance of the land by the railway compensated for the land taken. Another man occupying a con- tiguous block was equally benefited by the One, and perhaps none of his land was


The Hon. J. WARREN asked the Chief Secretary to postpone the clause, in order to give members a chance of considering it


Sir JOHN DOWNER said they were given the chance now of experimenting with the betterment principle on a fair ex- ploring area. The person, a portion of whose land was taken for railway purposes, had to remember the increased value given to his property thereby,, while the con

tiguous landowner was benefitted ; Therefore if the two equalised the prim was indicated, and no possible harm c come of it. The difficulty was not in exercise of the general principle, but as gards the individual instances in whic ought to be applied.

The Hen. T. PASCOE said the diffic might be that where one man was penal the other had all the benefit, and was penalised at all.

The Hon. J. VARDON moved to add

following proviso to the clause:-"Prov, that this clause should not apply to ] within four miles of the point of the t mencement of the railway." They oi to protect the people who held si

blocks of land.


railway would do an injustice to any surely they would have heard sometí about it from the people concerned,

a word of complaint had come fron single landowner, who would be affec and why should the Council take s against the Government?

The Hon. J. WARREN said he was

ing to protect the small man, and to take sides against the Government.

The amendment was declared negatr The Hon. J. WARREN called for a e sion, which resulted as follows:

Ayes (4)-Hons. G. Brookman, J. Duncan, T. Pascoe', and J. Warren (tell

Noes (11)-Hons. Sir J. W. Downer G. Bice, J. H. Howe, J. Lewis. B. A. M den, H. C. E. Muecke, G. Riddoch, H. Thompson. J. Vardon. A. von Doussa, A. A. Kirkpatrick (teller).

Majority of 7 for the Noes. Clause passed.

Clause 5. "Powers of Commissioner. I and charges."

The non. J. H. HOWE thought it wc be injudicious to handicap che producers imposing the proposed extra 12$ per c* to meet extra charges in working the i day, in consequence of it being scpai from the balance of che railway syst He moved to strike ouc the word«-"I vided that the Commissioner may, until said railway is earning working escper and interest on the tocal sum expended the construction thereof, increase such t and charges to the extent of 12$



amendment would be rejected, because ti must consider the interests of the pee generally. The railway was a special efi to develop a special part of the State, £ ag the cost of working the railway wo be greater rjian if the line were going co connected with the northern system, it t only fair to the people generally that

power co make the toll proposed should given. The people in the district did i object to the proposal, and there was the fore no reason why the proviso should

struck out.

The Hon. T. PASCOE said the pro bilifcies were the people interested kn nothing, about the proviso, and it was 1 duty of their representatives in the Coi eil to protect their interests. The prov would penalise che settlers ata time wî they would be least able to bear it. Tin was no justice in the proviso, which woi tell against the succès of the railway.

The Hon. J. LEWIS said if the prov were struck out, and the line were wort at a loss, the balance of the populati would be penalised, and he thought t proviso was fair.

The Hon. J. VARDON was satisfied t

settlers would rather pay the 12$ per cei than lose the railway. The proviso c not go nearly so far as the conditions ; tached to the Glencoe railway scheme.

Sir JOHN DOWNER was doubtful hi the ching would work out, and was afrc they would, by passing the proviso, put weight on the settlers which they woi not be able to carry.

The Hon. J. WARREN supported t amendment, as the proviso would be agair the interests of the railway, because if : creased tolls were imposed the settle would not use the railways, but would sei their produce by road to tho nearest po: They should not do anything which wou discourage the settlers and induce chem use the roads instead of the railway. 1 hoped the proviso would be struck out.

The amendment was declared carrie

The CHIEF, SECRETARY called for division, which resulted as follows:

Ayes. 8-Sir John Downer. Hons. J. Bice, J. J. Duncan, H. C. E. Muecke,

Pascoe. A. von Doussa, J. Warren, ai J. H. Howe (teller) .

Noes, 4-Hons. J. Lewis, B. A. Moulde G. Riddoch, and A. A. Kirkpatrick (telle]

Majority of 4 for the Ayes.

Pairs-For, Hon. A. R, Addison. Again; Hon. J. Vardon.

Clause as amended passed. Clause 6. Passed.

Clause 7. Tendera to be called for.

The Hon. J. J. DUNCAN said he wou like to know whether the Govemmei would call for tenders or build the line.

The CHIEF SECRETARY said ti clause gave the Government the power

have the line constructed. He had i doubt at all it made it compulsory for ti Government to call for tenders, but the was , nothing to prevent tho Governmei putting in a tender as well.

The Hon. J. LEWIS said a provisic should be inserted that in the event of ti Government tendering the tendersshould 1 opened by the Supply and Tender Boar The board should decide which tcndi should be accepted before the Governmei was permitted to see them.

The CHIEF SECRETARY said if M Lewis could get a sufficient following 1 could insert all those conditions.

The Hon. G. RIDDOCH moved to amen the cäause by adding the following provise -"Provided that the expenditure on th construction of the line, rolling-stock, an all other matters connected with the estai lishment shall not exceed by more tha £7,000 the estimate contained in the Eng neer-in-Chief s report filed in this Council. They should put some limit on the amour to be expended. The £7,000 would cove the extra cost to take the line to Karto


¿he Hon. J. LEWIS said he would lik progress reported, so that he could see th amendment in print.

Sir JOHN DOWNER said he understoo that the Government thought that unde that clause they could tender for the worl (The Chief Secretary-"That was only a idea.") It was a mistaken idea, because it was a recognised principle that if a man invited tenders he could not also tender. If that principle were departed from the Government might follow the precedent of Messrs. Martin & Co.'s case, and having   invited tenders on a certain basis might abandon that basis and do whatever they liked.   The Government were not to be trusted on that matter. Whatever arbitrary power they might exercise that clause would not give the Government power to call for tenders from themselves. If the Chief Secretary wanted the Government to have power to compete for the tender, he shold put such a provision in the clause. If the Government did not inform other tenderers that they also intended to compete, the private tenders might do nothing more than involve the tenderers in great expense in preparing the tenders.

The Hon. J. VARDON said there was t Fimilar provision to this in the Pinnaroo Railway Act, The Government did what a private individual would do. They got an estmatc, with which the tenders could be compared. , The Railways Commissioner claimed the right if the tenders were toe high to do the work himself. The same

thing was intended.

The CHIEF SECRETARY said that if this clause did not give the Government the right to tender Sir John Downer ought to let it pass. If they put in words say- ing the Government should it might lead to there being, perhaps, only two tenderers who would put their heads together. It was sometimes as well to put the taxpayers' case in that House as well ae the case for private enterprise and the private indivi- dual. If the Government put in a price, and another tenderer offered to do the work at £20 less he would give it to the latter; but if a private tenderer could not do it for less, why debar the Government from doing it in the interest of the   community ?

The Hon. J. H. HOWE agreed -with the Chief Secretary. No one could justify the recent action with respect to Martin and Co. The present Government would do all that was desirable, and would protect the taxpayers.

Progress reported; committee to sit again

next day.


The CHIEF SECRETARY laid on the table the following papers:-Pursuant to Statute:- Report of the Central Board of Health for 1904. By command- Statistical Register for 1904, Part vii., Religious, Educational, and Charitable Institutions.


At 5.30 p.m. the Council adjourned tul next day; at 2 p.m.


Wednesday, October 4.

The Speaker (Sir Jenkin Coles) took chair at 2 p.m.


The COMMISSIONER of PUB: WORKS (Hon. T. Price) told Mr. Vei that the Railways Commissioner report; Regulation No. 10 has never been cancel but many alterations have been made ii as more fully explained in my evidence fore the recent Royal Commission. ' stationmasters at Port Augusta do not ceivej first-class salaries, because the resr sibility of the officer in charge at eaci these stations is much less than it when the résiliation was made.

Mr. PRICE told Mr. Coombe that Railways Commissioner reports:-"We for che carriage and truck axle oil, 1/2 gallon, and 2/5 5-18 for castor oU for enj


Mr. SMEATON exhibited a device

the improvement of axles, and asked thî report should be obtained on the matte;

Mr. PRICE promised to obtain a repi TREATMENT OF CONSUMPTION Mr. PRICE informed Mr. Dankel thal letter received from Mr. Olsen, relating the treatment of consumption, had b forwarded to the Central Board ot Hes for report.

A DISTRICT COUNCIL MATTER. Mr. BLACKER asked if any decision

been arrived at concerning the transfer the main South-road from the Mitcham the Marion Council.

The COMMISSIONER of CRO\ LANDS (Hon. L. O'Loughlin) said the n ter was under consideration.


Mr.. PRICE told Mr. Roberts that

question as to whether a trade circuí under the name of the "Adelaide Stock i Station Journal," shoultl be registered transmission by post as a newspaper, " been referred to the Eederal postal aut rities for their opinion.


Mr. VAUGHAN moved for a retí showing the annual profits on the sale school books by the Education Dcpartnn during the 20 years ended June 30, IE



Mr. O'LOUGHLIN obtained leave to introduce a Bill to consolidate and amend the law relating to vermin destruction and vermin fencing, and for other purposes.

. LICENSED VICTUALLERS' BILL. Mr. TUCKER moved the second reading of the Licensed Victuallers' Further   Amendment Bill. He said the object of the Bill was to provide more efficient   control over the liquor traffic. Some of

privileges given to clubs were being abused by bogus clubs. It was never intended that the clubs should become mere drinking dens and gambling halls. A large number of clubs were a scandal to the community. In the country a shilling titled a man to become a life member some clubs. They had no sleeping commodation whatever. The recent

port of Colonel Madley (Commissioner Police) was sufficient to convince anye of the need for some reform. It was pi lie knowledge that some clubs allov their members to take liquor home. 1 Bill provided for the repeal of the p sent minimum license fee of £10, and I substitution of a minimum fee of £15 fo: club which had not more than a hundí members. Fcr a club with a membersl of between 100 and 200 he proposed license fee of £25, and for clubs with greater membership than that he propos an additional £5 for every hundred

fraction of a hundred. Provision v* made for placing clubs on the same footing as hotels with respect to inspection, and clubs were also to be put on the same basis as hotels as regards hours of selling, the object being to stop late drinking and Sunday drinking. It was further   provided that a man should not be regarded as a boarder on Sundays unless he he had slept on the club premises the previous Saturday night. Other clauses were designed to abolish the erection of bars in clubs, and to prevent billiards being played on Su days and Good Friday. At a later sta he purposeel bringing in a clause to pern of objections being raised to applicatic for club licenses. The Bill would not

any injustice to bona-fide clubs, but wo« aim a blow at bogus clubs. (Hear, heai

Mr. SELLAR thought the Bill shou have been called a measure to special benefit the hotelkeepers.

Mr. TUCKER-That is where you a narrow-minded; you are quite wrong.

Mr. SELLAR said the Bill proposed

subject a respected «¿ass to illiberal restri tions. He thought Mr. Tucker shouldjnv more definitely designated the class of clul he waQ legislating for. (Hear, hear The Bul was redolent with ridiculous i strictions, and would deprive club membe of that friendliness and recreation whii was so dear and necessary to them both e week days and on Sundays. If they wishi to be robbed of their rights no more pote: agent could be found than "Tuekerism (Laughter.) He was not opposed to ti Bill absolutely, because there might be few suggestions in it worth consideratio

On the motion of Mr. ARCHIBALD the debate was adjourned until October 18.

LAND VALUES ASSESSMENT BILI Adjourned debate on the second reading Mr. GOODE supported _ the measm which was taken into committee and agree to withoub amendment, the third readit being fixed for October 11.


The TREASURER (Hon. A. H. Peake resumed the debate on Mr. Burgoyne motion for the proclamation of a pollinj place at Koppio head station in the distr>< of Flinders. He moved to strike ot "head station," and to add the words, an closing the polling-places at Corowa an Warrina." The returning-officer reporte that only six persons voted at each < these polling-places at the last electioi and at Warrina each vote coit 10/, whic was rather costly. The amendments wet carried, and the motion as amended agree



Mr. PEAKE resumed the debate on Mi Senior's motion that a Select Committe be appointed to enquire into and repor upon the need for a better outlet for th produce of the South-Eastern district; th suitability of the present export facilities the possibility and probability of Victori; fcecuring the South-Eascern trade. He sail the Government intended to support th motion in an amended form. He movet to strike out "Select Committee be ap pointed," and insert "address be presente« to the Governor, praying his Excellenc; to appoint a Royal Commission." If a Select Committee were appointed, members of the Legislative Council could be   excluded. The Government agreed that the motion related to a highly important matter. The whole question of whether South Australia should continue to hold the South-East was bound up in the   motion. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. ARCHIBALD did not think then was_ any need for the first clause of the motion. It was obvious that the South East required a better outlet for its pro duce. The first was how much would ii cost to provide a suitable harbor for tjfe Soutli-Ea.<-t. Accommodation was re quired for big ships, so that vessels might load in the South-East for ports in Great Britain. He was not afraid of Victorian competition, for the harbor accommodation of the Victorian coast was as inadequate as that of the South-East. He supported

the amended motion.

Mr. BURGOYNE supported the motion, ne was doubtful, however, about the pru- dence of the amendment. Royal Com- missions were generally extravagant and futile, and a Select Committee would be more amenable to che wishes of the House. (Hear, hear.)

The Hon. A. CATT supported the mo- tion, but regret ced that the Government favored a Royal Commission. The last Royal Commission, of which he was a mem- ber, came to unanimous resolutions, but one of the Ministers (Mr. Jenkins) who, as a member of the Commission, had agreed to the report, eifterwards opposed the Commission's recommendations in the House. A Select Committee of five could prepare a report in a month._ If the Ade- laide merchants let the Victorian Hier chants take away the trade of the South East it was their own fault, for they had equal facilities. It was incumbent on the Hou=e, however, to facilitate the develop- ment of the1 South-East. Subject to the Government's amendment being lost, he would move to strike out "Select Commit- tee" and insert "committee of five,"

Mr. McüONALD favored the appoint Iraent of a Royal Commission, as the few

extra members required would make little difference in the cost. He was not afraid

of the trade of the South-East drifting to Victoria, but looked to that portion ol South Australia carrying four or five time? its present population, lhere was no doubl that within a few years the large estates would be cut up in the South-East. (Hear,


Mr. CONEYBEER favored a Royal Com- mission. He was afraid the South-Eastern trade might drift from che State. It. va« a beauciful country, wich great possibilities, and was capable, with intense culture, oi producing almost anything. Tho gr*£* deficiency, however, was the lack of sum', cient means of outlet for the produce. Vic' toria seemed determined to appropriate tha South-Eastern trade, and they should takes every precaution to prevent that. (Hear,


Mr. PEAKE-Victoria is getting it now. The amendmenc of Mr. Peake was car- ried, and the motion as amended passed. .

. CLOSER SETTLEMENT BILL . Adjourned debate on the second reading Mr. VAUGHAN said it was essential to open up the lands near centres of popula- tion, as well as the iback-blocks of Pinnaroo and Port Lincoln. The settlers from the arid districts of the north should have an. opportunity of moving within districts where they would be eure of a regular rain- fall, and a crop every year. Attempts had

been made to show that the pastoral in- ' dustry was worth more to South Australia'!* in railway rates than cereals were; but the j figures cited were fallacious, and did not! prove that revenue would not be immensely» increased if large estates were cut up. The* case of Yongala showed how much moro profitable a subdivided estate was to tho State. Koonawarra was another argu» ment in the same direction. It meant an increase of 1,000 per cent, m revenue. To suggest that a number of shearers would; be thrown out of employment if estates were cut up was absurd. The number oí men employed to tho acre in agriculture was infinitely greater than the number env ployed in shearing. A great deal had been said about the good done to the State by the large landholders in breeding high-chisi sheep, but he contemned that these hugf runs were not necessary to the production of a fine type of sheep. Equally good mut- ton could be produced on small arcas. Mr.) Cohen's references to New Zealand wer» scarcely germane to the subject, and his figures were erratic To suggest that only £900.000 of the £2,3S9,(W voted bj; the New Zealand Parliament for public purposes was to be used for reproductiva works was ridiculous. The falling-off <¡£ grain production m New Zealand was not

the result of closer settlement, as Mr, c Cohen had sought to show. The reason less grain had been produced was becaoa the !New Zealand farmers found the frozen

meat, wool, and dairy trade more profit« " able. Great estates had been the curse oí

every country. Great estates ruined Italy, ¿ Ireland, i and Scotland, and some of the'

sons of the old Scotch crofters were figbi-v, ing in South Australia to-day for the evil land conditions which drove their fathen from their native country. In repurchai ing these estates the principle of net alienating the land should be followed. He thought perpetual leases would givja landholders all the security of tenure they,]

could desire. The Land Board shoutl beware of land speculacors, and should lia very cautious in granting transfers. He ati tributed the unemployed difficulty in tlia main to the locking-up of large estates, ani- lle heartily supported the Bill. He behevci

the Legislative Council would hesitate "if < throw out so public-spirited a measurer (Hear, hear.) ¡

Mr. CATT said Mr. Vaughan was wro»i in implying, that the farmers were driven to the outside country. They insisted |n having that country, in spite of the warn." ings of Mr. Goyder. It had been sougat to show that New Zealand had done much more than South Australia in the way »E closer settlement, but such was not che case. In ten years 615.2oo acres had been rep»r chased in New Zealand, whereas in sevsn years in South Australia 280,000 acres had been repurchased. Souch Australia had therefore repurchased more land propo« tionately to population than New Zealand/ Mr. Vaughan contended that the Crown lands should, never have been sold, bul South Australia would never have been populated if the pioneers had nob lees given the fee-simple of land. In his opiaiou it was far better to sell the land outngai than to let it to lessees, who were con* stantly forcing the Government to remit their rent. Without compulsion, there had been as much closer settlement in South-. Australia as in Queensland, where 329,157,' acres had been purchased under compolsioa during the last fen years. The State coulet - repurchase estates as fast as it cou'd find the money to pay for them. He did not believe in compulsion until the time cam«

when the State could not secure lagd withy - out resorting to this principle. He opposeef the second reading, and would di his uff most in committee if it wereicirried t< amend the Bill.

Mr. INKSTER did not want the people * we had been at .tho trouble to rear and educate'to go away from us. The object

of this-Bill was to find them homes in ' < South Australia. The Government were - quite right in telling General Booth there was no land available for the people he pro- posed to send out. We should provide for our own people first. (Hear, hear.) Ii? was true that there were 1,500,000 acres oß, Crown lands available, but they were, many ' of them, far from markets, m districts with' an uncertain rainfall, so that farmers could not be expected to take them up. Even

the Port Lincoln lands were only suitable

for wheat culture after the use of fertilisers. Tliey should open up all the available Crown lands first, and then bring the prin- ciple of the present measure into operation« Mr. Butler had proposed a Bill of a simi- lar character. He' considered the Bill n fair one. , In every direction some sort'of compulsion had to be resorted to, and' it was only right to bring it to bear in order to facilitate the settlement of the people on the land. He did not blame the big larga landowners, but, if it was true that they had been compelled to purchase their land in the first instance, they should not obi ject to be compelled to sell it now. (Hear) hear, and laughter.) He did not knort

that the measure was specially necessary af . present, but it was well to affirm the prin« ( ciple. He agreed that there was more land offering just now than the Government were able to take, as the price waa too high. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. INKSTER obtained leave to continue   his remarks next day.    


At 6.22 p.m. the House adjourned till     next day at 2 p.m.