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LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

TUESDAV.! SehTEMHEH 17.

The Speaker took tho chair at tho usua hour. ..;.-'. MEDICAL WITNESSES HILL, Tho Speaker reported that His Excellence

nau assented xo mis x-iu. ? 1IAWKEUS AND PKDLAUS BILI,. The Speaker reported that the Governor hac withheld Her Majesty's assent to this Bill. POLICE ESTIMATES FOU 1845. His Excellency's private Seorotary handed tc tho Speaker, the following Message from the Governor, which was read. Message from- His Excellency the Governoi to the Legislative Council, transmitting de tallod estimates of the expense of the proposed Police : Establishment of the colony for the year, 1845. ' Gentlemen, — -With reforenco to ray Message to the Council of the 20th ult., I herowith trans mit detailed estimates of the expense of the pro posed Police Establishment of the colony for the year 1845. , ' (Signed,,) George Gipps. ' Government House, Sydney, 17th Sept. Message ordered to be printed, together with the Estimate, and ordered to be taken into con sideration to-morrow this day. EDUCATION. Mr. Bowman presented a petition signed by 437 members, including tho minister of St. Mat thew's Church, Windsor, praying against the system of education recommended by the Select Committoe of tho Council. Petition read and received. OOUUT OF BEQUESTS, MELBOURNE. Mr. Robinson prosonted a petition from cer tain merchants and traders of Melbourne, pray ing the, extension to that Town of tho j(i3(. jurisdiction of tho Courts of Requests. Petition, read, roceived, and. referred to the Select Committoe on the Courts of Requests Bill. ... ? EDUCATION. Dr. Lanq presented a Potitlon signed by 102 heads of families, all possessing the eloctive fran otioo, .reqirlnnt in - tlia district of Goelong, ir favor of tho systom of Education rcconmiendod by the Select Committee of tho Legislative Council. ' ? - Petition read and received. Mr. Loud presented a Petition 'from cortain inhabitants of tho District of Bathurst, praying against the systom of Education proposed by the Scloot Committee of tho Council. Petition read and received. roBT 1'iiiLLir. Mr.' Rouinson presented a Petition from the Mayor, Aldermen, and Councillors, of the town of Melbourne, praying that tho Revenue recoiva ble in the district of Port Phillip may hereafter be upplied exclusively to the bonefit of that dis trict. Petition read and received. Mr. Robinson gavo notico that he should move, to-morrow (this day), that tho foregoing petition bo printed. education. .-???'.-? I Dr. Lano presented a Petition from certain inhabitants of Windsor, praying the adoption of the systom recommended by the Select Com ttitteo of tho Council. Petition road nnd roeoivod. Mr. Rooinhon postponed till Friday, Oct. 4, ho motion which stood in his name on the paper

for tho 20th instant, being- the consideration of the Resolution and the Report of the Select Committee on the subject of Education. Mr. Cowpeh presented a Petition from up wards of 200 inhabitants of Caslle Hill and Dural, in tho county of Cumberland, praying against the introduction of the System of Edu cation proposed by the Select Committee of the Council. Petition read and received. 1'ILOT At WOLLONGO.VQ AND BUISDANB WATER. The Colonial Skchetauv gave notice, that he should move to-morrow, (this day) in tho Committee on the Estimates, that a sum not exceeding ^£'127 15s. be appropriated to defray tho salary of the Pilot at Wollongong and at Brisbane Water, for the year, 1S45. CASUAL AND TKUIUTOIUAL, UEVENUES. The Colonial Sucuetarv laid on the table certain Despatches movod for by Mr. Wont worth relative to the Casual Revenue of the colony. Despatch ordered to bo printed. WILLIAM MANNINGS AIINOLD. Tho Colonial Sf.cuetahy laid on the table the Returns moved for on tho 23rd ult. by Dr. Nicholson, being tho copy of a correspondence relative to Mr. Arnold's case. FUIlTHnil CONSIDERATION OF BEPOUT ON GROWN LAND GRIEVANCES. The debato which ensued on this subjoct on Friday lost, and stood adjourned to this day, was resumed by Dr. Lang, ? who, after bestowing duo praise on the Committeo and its Chairman, for the ablo manner in which tho Report was drawn up, observed, that the various points to which it referred had been so ably discussed by lion, members, who thought with him on the subject, that he would not take up tho time of the Coun cil by going through the whole of them again ; but there was one which he considered of para mount importance ; namely, the assumption of a right on tho part of the Government *.o tax the people without the consent o ftheir Representa tives. Other grounds of grievance were unim portant, and might, as they doubtless would, be redressed, but that to which he .eferred seemed a blow at the liberties of the people, by intro ducing a system altogether unknown for centu ries past. After the time of the Norman Con quest, tho Crown assumed the power of dispos ing of the lands : at least such was tho theory of the feudal era, but it was not that of modern times ; neither was it to be ' supposed that the Representative of Majesty in this colony pos sessed anv such prerogative as that assumed by William the Conqueror ; for this country was not obtained by conquest, but constituted by an Act of Parliament of tho British Empire, and there fore the waste lands therein co'uld only be held under that Act. There was also another pecu liarity connected with this assumption, that it was tho first instance that ever occurred in the history of Colonization, in -which an attempt had been made to derive a rovenuo from waste lands, on which' human labour had not been employed, and for which proceduro thero was no precedent : therefore those concerned therein were bound to look on it with extrarao jealousy, and Tie (Dr. Lapp;) trusted the Council woulc see it in that light, and mako a most deter mined stand against this asserted preroga tive — this encroachment on tho rights of the colonists. He did not so much object to the raising of tho Revenue, provided that it was . submitted to the . samo check as other revenues, but he did object to its being raised and expended without the consent of the repre sentatives of the poople ; — it was destructive of that birthright ot Englishmen which' ought to be transmitted to the latest posterity, but which would not bo worth many years purchase, if such a prerogative were allowed to bo exer cised. He (Dr L.) quite agreed with the Resolution relative to the minimum price of land, and that the price of XI per aero was fat above its intrinsic value. There doubtless was a quantity of land, which, from tho nature of its soil, and its situation being adapted for agri cultural purposes, might be worth oven more than that price ; but centuries would - elapse before tho land employed in agriculture would boar any proportion to that used for pastoral purposes, which it was quite evident was not worth anything likei XI per aero Tho value of land employed in grazing might bo easily ascertained, as it was well known how much was sufficient to feed a shoep, and the value of what that sheep produced could also bo defined ; but there was a difficulty, with regard to . the value of agricultural lands, as they might be applied to so many purposes to which the industry of man gavo a value. The present high minimum price of land no doubt, acted as a cheque to immigration, and tended to retard tho advancement of the interests of the com munity. The Squatting Regulations had been sufficiently discussed; he (Dr. L.) therefore merely observed, that he concurred with the opinion conveyed in the Resolution, that they were unsuited to the colony, and ought to be set aside. He did not object to the Regulations themselves so much, as to the enormity of the principle on which they were based ; licenses were an impost which ought not to be raised without the consent of the representatives of the people, and on that ground he protested against them. In reference to the state of subjection to which occupants of the waste lands beyond the boundaries were exposed, and the state of degradation to which they were reduced by the unconstitutional powers of the Crown Lands Commissioners, he fully con curred with the Committee as to the expe- diency of establishing something like a trial by jury. It was also desirable that the Squatters should be placed on another footing, in order that the elective franchise should be extended to them, which they were not in a situation to exercise so long as they remained, as at present, dependent on the beck of officers of the Government of so anomalous a nature as the Crown Lands Commissioners. He would not touch on the subject of the price of Occupation Licenses, but he fully conourred with the eighth Resolution, as regarded Quit-Rents. As to the recommendation respecting the minerals, he saw no reason for opposing it ; but he thought the most valuable mines were eighteen inches from the surface of tho earth, and the more they were worked the more rapid would be the moral and general advancement of the colony. The question of the Compact had been so much and so powerfully discussed, that ho (Dr. L.) considered it unnecessary to say more than to express his concurrence with the view set forth in the Resolution. If there was no contract, there ought to have been one; but he   would take his stand on higher ground, and in- sist on the right of the Council to the entire control of the Rovenueof the Crown Lands,   independently of any contract whatever. He thought that Hon. members generally agreed as to the propriety of apportioning one-half the Land Revenue to purposes of immigration, when the colony was fit to receive such an ad- dition to its population ; and all he wonld ask was, that the remainder should be placed at the control of the Council. Dr. Bland fully concurred with the second and third Resolution, being of opinion that the Squatting Regulations were based on an arbi- trary power, which assumed the right of in- creasing the demands of the Government, and thereby laying a large and respectable portion of the inhabitants of the Colony at the mercy of the Crown. The management of the Crown lands ought to be placed on a better footing, for left to the Executive alone, it would be the   means of enslaving the country. Concurring in substance with the fourth, fifth, and sixth Reso- lutions, he observed, with reference to the latter, that he had received a communication which showed the unprotected state in which the Squatters were placed, and how necessary it   was that a change should be effected, in ordor that occupiers of land beyond the boundaries should no longer be left to the whims and

caprices of the Crown Lands Commissioners, who exercised their power in the most despotic manner. (Hear.) lie (Dr. B.) would riot enter on the subject of the seventh Resolution ; but he considered that the eighth contained u self evident proposition, and ought to bo supported on every principle of equity and sound policy. Passing over the ninth Resolution, referring' to the subject of Quit-rents, of which bo knew but little, he considered the tenth to contain a wise proposition, which had his support. With re ference to the Compact, he considered that the Governor could but admit its existence; looking at all the matters connected therewith. The honorable member then at some length ex patiated on tho impolicy and imprudence of sending away capital to export- labor; and ob served in conclusion that it would bo better that the price of land should be high, than at so luw a price as Is. 6d. per acre, which would bo a very destructive measure, and lead to despotism of individuals, which was worse than a despotism of Government; and large estates, instead of a benefit to the country, wero rather an incubus thereon. Mr. Walkeb observed, with respect to tho Squatting regulations, the question was, whether the Government had any right to levy the con tributions proposed therein, for the same power that framed the regulations of the 2nd April, might, next year, increase the amount twenty fold— making the' system a truly Algerine mea sure. The Squatters wero tho life-blood of the Colony, and it was preposterous to subject their interests to the caprice of the Executive. Flo was anxious to see the body of Squat tors, composed principally of the middle classes, (who wero the strength of a country,) instead of seeing the lands in tho occupation of large Squatters. He concurred with the Reso lutions as regarded tho fixity of tenure and the curtailing of tho powors of the Commissioners. With - respect to the Occupation Licenses, ho was of opinion that tho value placed on them by the Committee was too low. He could not agree with the recommendation relative to the Quit-Rents, which he considered to be unjust, impolitic, and inexpedient, and holding out a premium to the non-fulfilment of a contract, as it gave an advantage to those who had become possessed of land at a low rate — an advantage over those who had paid a high price for it. Many had paid up, and some had redeemed their Quit-rents, who would bo in a worso position from having done so, seeing that they had lost the advantage which would bo afforded to those who had not. It was, in fact, taking tho burden from the rich, and throwing it on the poor. He thought the proposition respect ing the minerals had been somewhat under valued by somo hon. members ; he did not mean with reference to precious metals or precious stones, but with reference to coal, which was the real precious stono — the black diamond of England, and to the discovery of which every support should be given. He could not say much on the Compact question, which had been ably discussed, but he had never doubted the existence of the agreoment involved therein. IIu was opposed to the Resolution relative to tho much abused Act of Parliament, by tho operation of which it was said the colony was ruined. Ho would not admit that tho colony was ruined, for ho considered it was never ' in a more flourishing stato than at present. (Hoar, hear.) There were more people, more wealth, moro produce, more exports, and — [More bank rupts, from some hon. member.] He admitted that there wero bankrupts, from over specula tion, but it was the old order of things that brought about the ruin, and not tho present. Labor and capital wero both abundant, and as mnch . more of - the former could be bad as might be required. If the sales of land had boon prevented, it was a fortunate result, ? as it put a check on wild speculations therein. Graziers were not compelled to buy land ; in fact, it was nevor intended that laud should bo sold for the mere value of tho grass on its surface.; Doubtless it was. only the. best land that. was at this moment worth 20s. per acre ; but on his view of tho matter he would give tho land to all who would make use of it, and take a price ouly merely as a security that it would be made uso of, and not hoarded up with tho same , dog-in-the-manger feeling as at present. .In nis opinion, tho price of land should solely have referenco to colonization, and bo sold only for tho purposo .of supplying labor and the purchasers thereof, it was popu lation that gavo value to land. What, for example, mado tho land .near Sydney more valuable . than the land of tho interior? Why, the population. What made tho land so valuable in England ? Why, the population.. The Government should people the land first, and talk about selling it afterwards. By the Act, no pro vision was made for sending out, laborers, and on that ground alono his objection was founded. Tho lion, inpmbor then proceeded to road- ex tracts, from a document publishod by tho New South Wales and Van Diemon's Land- Asso ciation, which was established in , London* somo few years since, in Which the doctrines of the Wakefieldian System were advocated. lie also entered into an animated .defence of the Wake field thoory, which he contended had been misrepresented and misunderstood in this co lony; and ho appealed to the test. of experience in South Australia, as' to tho ' amount of good which had boon practically worked out thereby. He read somo lengthy extracts from certain papers published by himself five or six years ago, in which- he insisted that the minimum price of lands in this colony might bo advan tageously raised to five or six times its then amonnt, if tho whole proceeds wore exponded in importing young adult laborers of both sexes, in equal proportions. He claimed for that great man, Wakefield, every credit for his systom. (Oh, oh, and ironical cheors.) ? Hu (Mr. W.) contended, that in attaching tho epithet 'great' to Mr. Wakefiold's name, he was fully borne ont by the full allowance of his merits by all classes in England, from tho Colo nial Minister down to tho lowest emigrant. He despaired of making hon. raombors converts to his views, inasmuch as their minds woro iloubt lossly made up, but had deemed it his duty to state the grounds on. which ho differed from some of the conclusions to which tho Laud Grievanco Committeo had arrived. (Hoar.) Mr. Therry said that he could not assent to   the proposition contained in the first Resolution, which stated that the "Council adopted gene-   rally the opinions contained in the Report," in-   asmuch as whilst he (Mr. T.) assented to some of those opinions, he dissented altogether from   others. The proposition, therefore was an un-   intelligible compromise), which he strongly ob- jected to. He, in particular, dissented from   the opinions embodied in the second and third Resolutions, which had reference to the De pasturing Regulations of the 2nd of April last, and the Recommendations transmitted by the General Hewitt, on the 23rd of the same month. He admitted that the time chosen for their pro- mulgation had been inopportune, but he con- tended that principle on which they were framed was just and defensible. He would not claim for them perfectibility, but he assorted that they would have the effect of equalising the condition of the poor, and wealthy squatter. The Recom- mendations were ndmitted by most parties to be founded on equitable principles, [No, no, from Mr. Robinson.] and he did not think they were fairly entitled to the consure levelled at them in the terms of the Resolution. He (Mr. T.) asked   whether it were equitable that the occupier of twenty thousand, and of one hundred thousand   acres, should pay the same license fee? The   loport bad not fairly met that question, for owover it might be argued that the largo tockholdcr paid a largo assessment, yet the ijustico done to land was the same, and' tho Peculations, which proposed to cqualtao the ondition of the squatter, wero framed in ac

cordance with the principles of equity, good conscience, and justice. The Governor was, in fact.'the stewardLpf the Crown Lands, and bound to protect alike the interest of the oolonists and tho Crown ; and how could he allow a system of monopoly to go on ad iiifinitum ? The whole of tho available lands beyond the immediate limits of. location were already in the hands of tho squatting interests ; and ho (Mr. T.) asked where newly-arriving emigrants were to go ? Occupiers of four and five hundred thousand acres wero to be found claiming Fixity of Tenure, and freehold interests ; and although such claims had been repudiated by tho hon. and learned member for Sydney, the doctrine had been sot up in certain quarters, and claims attempted to be established, on terms that a nation would think proper to award to a Marlborough or a Wellington. (Hear.) He (Mr. T ) would ad mit, thut the framing of theso Rogulations ought not to fall exclusively on the Executive ; their power ought to be controlled ; and it had been suggested by u gentleman, whose opinions are entitled to great respect, that a Commission would be tho best deposit for a trust of this kind. In his ovidonce before the Land Grivance Committee, the guntlomau to whom he referred, Mr. James Macarthur, had given his opinion on this subjoct in the following terms. He (Mr T.) would read tho queries and the replies, as they appeared in the printed Report. Would you leave tlie lands in the hands of tho Executive Government ? I should say, as a general principle, that the administration of the lands belonging to the Crown, must ultimately be vested in the Executive Government. I would point out an objection, that it would put a dangerous power in tho hands of tho Executive ; do you think there would be any thing in that ? buch a caso may arise, but I cannot conceivo a good Government to have interests alien to those of tho community. I cannot separate the general interest of the Go vernment from the interests of the people. The Imperial and Local Legislatures should lay down certain goneral rules, on which, the Executive should act. The Executive Government should, for instance, . determine, in accordance with those general rules, whether a district should be agricultural or pastoral. In reference to the fourth Resolution, Mr. Therry observed, that the. Report of the Com mittee set forth by stating, that they felt the time had arrived when a bold effort must bo mado to effect a complete change in the system of administering the Crown Lands of the co lony, and that the Resolution in question was certainly framed in accordance with that propo sition. Whether it would bo advisable to invest the Council with the full powers to which they aspire, he (Mr. T.) would not then inquire, but it was clear, that tho real objoct of the Com mittoe was to reduce the Local Executive to a mere cipher. Resolutions from No. 5 to No. 10, the hon. and learned member did not altogether dissent from, except in some trifling matters which might be adjusted when each Resolution was discussed in. detail. Tho Resolution, with respect to which Mr. T. professod to bo most at variance with was No. 11, which referred to the famous ' Compact,' and on this question the main force of the. hon. and learned mem ber's arguments rested.-, llo entered into a searching analysis of the correspondence on tho subjoct, commencing with the regulations in i force in 1827, and following the various De- ' snatches from succeeding Secretaries of State to the explanatory one of Lord Glenolg in 1835. He contended that no compact had beon proved to oxist, and that the act of Sir Richard Bourke proved that he bad nover considered the right of appropriation of tho Territorial arid Casual Revenues to have been ceded to the -Local Le gislature by the Lords of the Treasury. Differ ing, therefore, from the chief Resolutions before the Council, he could not give his vote in favor of a proposition which insisted on the adoption generally of the'Report. (Cheers.) ? Mr. Windeyeh -supported tho Resolutions, which woro opposed bytMr. Dauvall ; and Mr.. Cowper having replied, tho Resolutions were put seriatim and carried. A division took place on tho first, when the result was as follows; — ' For the Resolution ? ...:....... 13 Against it ? 6 , . Majority ? ' J -~ ' A full report of the thrco last' speeches will appear in to-morrow's issue. ? ; '' ' - --?'?'?*?* The remaining Motions and Orders; of the Day were deferred, and the : Council broke, up at a quarter before eleven. ,.*'?' , ; ;

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