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  • SheffieldPark 20 Aug 2010 at 16:14
    Error: Victoria does not use 4' 8.5" gauge.

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11 corrections, most recently by curator49 - Show corrections




The PRESIDENT took the chair at a quarter past three, and read the usual form of prayer.


The PRESIDENT moved, in pursuance of   notice - " That a select committee be appointed,

consisting of the hon. J. Bramston, the hon. G.   Harris, the hon. Louis Hope, the hon. E. I. C. Browne, and the Mover, to inquire into and report upon the requirements of this colony, under its increasing trade ami commerce, as to the pro- vision of additional lighthouses for its coasts and harbors ; with power to send for persons and papers, and with leave to sit during any adjourn- ment." - It would not, he said, detain the Council long, but he might explain that the particular

subject to which the notice referred had been   brought under his notice more particularly by Captain Manly, of the David M'Ivor, who had told him that he had touched on a sandspit at Hervey's Bay lately, and such an accident might have been avoided were a light put there. The place was dangerous ; it extended 23 miles from Traitor Island, and for the purpose of avoid- ing disaster he asked for the committee. As the

hon. L Hope could not attend, he would substi-  

tute the name of the hon. H. B. Fitz.

The motion, as amended, was put and passed.


The hon. R. J. SMITH, in pursuance of notice, moved- "That an address he presented to his Excellency the Governor, praying that he will be pleased to cause to be laid on the table of this house a return showing the total number of German immigrants who have arrived in this colony direct from Europe since the appointment of an emigration agent in Germany, up to the 31st of July, 1863, distinguishing the respective numbers of either sex and adults from those under age ; also, the number, the names, and the date of arrival in Moreton Bay of the ships conveying such immigrants, and showing the number con- veyed by each vessel." He said he regretted

having been absent when the motion ought to  

have come on before.

The question was put and passed.


The hon. J. BRAMSTON laid upon the table  

the report of the above committee, and moved that  

the same be printed.

The motion was put and passed.


On the order of the day for the second reading of the above bill being called on,

The hon. H. B. FITZ suggested that the ques-

tion be postponed until after evidence had been  


On the motion of the hon. Dr. HOBBS, Mr. David M'Connel was ordered to attend at the bar.

The PRESIDENT announced to Mr. M'Connel   the reason why he had been called, and

The hon. Dr. HOBBS proceeded to examine


Mr. M'Connel, in answer to questions, said he had resided between twenty-two and twenty-three years in the colony, and had a station situated on the Upper Brisbane, in the squatting district of East Moreton : he therefore had a knowledge of the district. He knew the proposed line of the Tramway Company: it had to cross the Little Liverpool, a number of creeks, and the Main Range, before reaching Toowoomba. After de- scribing the nature and steepness of the ranges, he gave it as his opinion that there was another point where the Little Liverpool could be crossed in one mile instead of in seven, as proposed. The route he promised was from Ipswich via Lockyer's Creek, and so far there were no great bridges or viaducts necessary, that could not be constructed for a tenth of the amount mentioned as necessary in Mr. Fitzgib- bon's report, and there was plenty of ballasting at Ipswich. The place he proposed crossing the Little Liverpool at was the lowest point in the range. He would propose to start from Little Ipswich northerly towards Drayton for a distance of five or six miles, branch off then in a north- westerly direction up a gully which would permit of the Ironbark Range being avoided, and cross Sandy Creek- a small creek where there was no range. The line should then take a turn westerly into the Rosewood Scrub, after which, on approach- ing the Little Liverpool, some low land would have to be crossed for two miles. In that place there was plenty of choice of a course, and after rising the range there was an easy descent. At the present there was a track called Fleming's track, and a bullock driver who had travelled the way often had assured him that the track was over a low range not at all steep. At the Lockyer's Creek Range it was rather steep, but past that at Rosewood's station was a large creek- Doorabba Creek- easily crossed. About five miles further on there was a spur of easy ascent, that led to Mount Cross and Crows nest. At Mount Cross the land was high table-land, and by taking this course the line could be taken round the heart of Lockyer's Creek. He was not sure which would be best- to cross Lockyer's Creek or to take the course up the spurs at Redbank Creek, or another   near Doorabba Creek, which was easier than any of them only that there were some stony parts which might be objectionable. His proposed course gave the distance to be about 25 miles to the Main Range, with a gradual ascent all the way, and he could not see that there would be any serious diffi- culty in making a railway along that route. There was a large quantity of timber on the top of the Main Range near the head of Crows Nest Creek. He admitted that it was twelve or thirteen years since he was over the ground, and even then he did not traverse it with any view to making a rail- way line there ; indeed he was not a surveyor or engineer. He never had travelled Fleming's track, but went the direct line to Tarampa, and believed there was only one range to cross on that route ; and although he had not travelled from Ipswich   to Toowoomba and the Downs all along the line he suggested, yet he had been on nearly every part at different times. There was no track of any sort when he was there. Lockyer's Creek was liable to floods he believed, but there was not any stagnant water on all the line. The course he suggested would he a more direct one to Dalby than that recommended by Mr. Fitzgibbon ; but the distance to Toowoomba would be greater in consequence of the detour.

Mr. William Pettigrew was then called to the bar of the house, and said he had resided in the district between 14 and 15 years. He was a surveyor some years ago, and made the map of the Moreton squatting district before the house. He was of opinion that the Little Liverpool and Malu Range presented an almost insuperable barrier to the formation of a railway on the route of the old tramway company; the creeks to be crossed were Lockyer's, Sandy, Blackfellow, and Laidley, all of which were actual torrents in wet weather. He knew a better course, over which he had ridden, and surveyed by the aid of a pocket compass, years ago. He would cross Lockyer's Creek above Tarampa, get on to the range form- ing the southern boundary of the waters that fall into Doorabba Creek, continue going up the range on the south side past Mount Cross, past, the bend of Westbrook Creek waters, then into the main range, at the head of Lock- yer's Creek, and that course would give an in- clination all the way up in a length or about 28 miles. There was plenty of ballast at Doorabba, within two or three miles of the line he suggested, and the finest lot of timber ever he saw in Queens- land was growing on top of the range. It would all be suitable for sleepers, &c. The route he mentioned would be a more direct one to Dalby than that proposed, and cheaper at the same time. lt was if not impractible- at least inadvisable, to make a railway rise 1500 feet in nine miles.

Mr. Gregory, Surveyor-General, was called to the bar of the house, and said: The map produced was an authentic one of the country. He had personally surveyed the road from Ipswich to Toowoomba, and knew it well. He knew all the creeks, and thought it advisable not to carry a line of railway along the proposed route. He knew a line affording far greater facilities than the one under contemplation- which would not afford easier gradients at places than one in thirty, as there was no spur until within nine miles of the range, which, being 1500 feet high, required fifteen miles to give a gradient of one in fifty, the fastest one possible with any chance of safety. No engine could come down a gradient of one in

fifty faster than four miles per hour, unless extra     precautions were used, and this arose partly from

there being numerous severe curves proposed to   lengthen the distance in the rise from nine to fifteen miles. At the point af crossing proposed the requisite tunnel must be a mile long to give a gradient of one in fifty, and the cost of such a tun-

nel would he very huge. The ordinary   cost in England for tunnelling was from £70 to £139 per yard- lineal. The Great Eastern cost £72. Saltwood, £118§, Kilsby, on the North Western, £130 ; and he might men- tion that the latter was estimated to cost £40. The Boxhill over £100, including masonary, &c. All those were single lines on the narrow gauge i.e., 4 feet 8½ inches, and required a 35 feet cut- ting. The little Liverpool he observed was of coal, sandstone, and shale formations : the latter two-thirds; and it, while being easy to excavate was unfortunately more difficult and costly to "shore" up ; still at the best being unsafe. In the absence of data lt would be dlffi- cult to say the cost of the tunnel ; it would not, he thought, he less than £80,000. The difficulties to be overcome in getting up the Main Range with an ordinary locomotive would lend to a cost double or treble that of any ordinary

line. Tunnelling on the Main Range would he very difficult, the geological formation being prin-   cipally basaltic rock. He would suggest the ex-   periment of trying for a line west of Blackfellow's Creek and the Crows Nest lines; and it would be necessary that a fresh crossing should be dis- covered of the Black Bark Range. The present natural surface was one in twenty, and cutting would not be very costly until at Lockyer's Creek- which must be crossed. On looking at the map, he would say that the present road was the very worst to Too- woomba; but if the ascent had been distributed, it would have been easy- to rise 1500 feet in nine miles, it would he necessary to have a num- ber of small curves, or one large one. He had looked at the Crows Nest line within the last six weeks, and was of opinion that it was worth a pre- liminary survey, which could be done within a month, at least, so far as to ascertain its practi- cability was concerned. He approved of the route marked out on the map by Mr. M'Connel ; and was of opinion that curves in a radius of five chains would not be safe on a gra- dient of less than one in fifty. After referring to the practice in England, and to the manner of raising the outer rail in a curve, he said that all these things would tell more against the narrow 3 feet 6 inch gauge than with the 4 feet 8½ inch ; and as an extreme case he quoted a curve in England as being in a radius of 7½ chains, the travelling on that being at the rate   of 20 miles per hour ; the proposed curves for the

line he considered to be unsure therefore. He   instanced the general adoption of the 4 feet 8½ inch gauge, and mentioned that it ruled in Victoria, also, that the greatest height attained there was 750 feet, in a greater distance than was desired to get double the height here ; besides, in Victoria the highest point was led up to by a long plain of gradual ascent. The only saving on the narrow gauge would lie in the ballast, and would lead to loss in accelerated vibration and conse- quent wear and tear ; beside all the engines and rolling stock would be of a different size to the ordinary make, and contractors would not have the proper chance of contracting because of that, while there would he a cost incurred in getting the strange sized stock. There was such no unsafe gauge, and unsafe gradients and curves, on the line proposed by Mr. Fitzgibbon, that he, as Surveyor-General of the colony, would feel it his duty to refuse to have might to do with in sanctioning its commencement on the proposed plan ; and he would consider it his duty   to have a preliminary survey made before going

into the matter.

After replying to a number of questions relat- ing to the formation of carriages, aud the modern appliances to improve the railway engine, Mr. Gregory withdrew.    


The PRESIDENT announced the receipt of a message from the Legislative Assembly, enclosing

the Police Bill.

On the motion of the hon. J. BRAMSTON, the bill was read a first time, and its second reading was made an order of the day for Friday next.


The PRESIDENT announced the receipt of a further message with the above bill.

It was read a first time, on the motion of the hon. J. BRAMSTON, and its second rending was made an order of the day for Friday next.



By permission of the house, on the motion of the hon. J. BRAMSTON,

Mr. WILLOUGHBY HANNAM was called to the bar of the house. He said he was a surveyor. He knew the country in the vicinity of the Little Liverpool Range thoroughly. It divides into two or more spurs as it approaches the Upper Bris- bane, but they all join the main range. In going to Campbell's Gully toward Fernie Lawn, it is ne- cessary to cross the Ironbark range, which is a very steep range, extending for about five or six miles. He remembered surveying a part of the way for the old Tramway Company, and thought

the gradients were about 1 in 20. At the bend of Campbell's Gully, where Mr. M'Connel proposed to take his line he believed it to be impracticable. He had surveyed the range for six miles northerly from Campbell's Gully, and the survey terminated near the present railroad ; but having been all down the range to the river, he believed the point selected by the Tramway Company as a crossing wa the best. He had accompanied Mr. Fitz- gibbon in his survey of the line up to Dalby and Warwick, and knew where Mr. Fitzgibbon pro- poses taking the railroad over the range. lt is on thc North side of thc road, and has not been surveyed. He believed that a gradient of 1 in 50 could be obtained. Mr. Fitzgibbon did not sur- vey the line, but simply rode over it. He con- sidered that no one by only riding over a line could form a just opinion on the subject. He be- lieved the route proposed by Mr. Fitzgibbon was a better one than that proposed by Mr. Pettigrew. The Little Liverpool became lower as it ap- proached Tarampa, and broke out into several smaller ridges. In going over the ground there were no levelling instruments used, but the tram- way plans were referred to in thc course of the survey, and they were sufficient to give the quanti- ties as set down in Mr. Fitzgibbon's report. For that part of the line where there were no plans the estimates had been made out from observation merely.

Mr. E. J. Fitzgibbon was then called to the bar of the house, and said he was an engineer. He finished his apprenticeship with Mr. C. Landon, in 1844, and under him he had extensive experience in bridge and railway building. He remained with Mr. Landon until 1847, and went to Mr. Dargon for five years, where he had some more extensive experience. In 1852 he went out to America for Messrs. Fox and Henderson to report upon the Illinois line. He remained with them until 1857, and went then to Ceylon, whence he went to New Zealand to the Dun Mountain Company, and had completed a railway on a three feet gauge there. In making his calculations he took out all the quantities from the plans of the tramway company, which plans he had found to be correct. He had de- parted from the course of the tramway at times, especially on the Main Range; and after a careful examination of the Little Liverpool, and Ironbark Range, of the country lying between Laidley and Lockyer's Creek, and was of opinion no better place than that chosen could be found. As to the estimate he had made, he was certain he was over the mark in the matter of cost in every instance. There were no plans for one part of the line, but that was over an easy country, and any man used to railway building could form an approximate idea. He would not undertake to make a prelimi- nary survey of the entire line under four months; and as to the gauge, he would read a statement to the house. Mr. Fitzgibbon then proceeded to read the statement in favor of the 3 feet 6 inch gauge, and handed in a plan of an engine in course of erection by Messrs. Stephenson, of Newcastle, for use on a line in New Zealand. He supported the narrow gauge, and held that safety entirely depended upon speed. He also quoted the opinion of several celebrated engineers in aid of his views. The steepest inclines in exist- ence were one in 36, one in 47, one in 48, one in 45, one in 25, and one in 46; all of these were in   full work, and in several instances on curves of ten chains radius. In New Zealand he had con- structed a line, and there was a gradient on it of one in 18 for seven miles, part of which was used for passengers, and he had himself come down fre- quently at a rate of eight miles per hour, and along curves on a radius of two chains. The carriages were taken up by horses. He denied that he had made a failure of a railway in New Zealand, the facts were simply that the colony could not raise the necessary capital. A three foot six inch gauge line would be sufficient to meet the require- ments of the country, and as for safety, at twenty miles an hour, it would be perfectly safe for pas- senger traffic, or for any other purpose. In com- ing down gradients, or along curves of five chains radius, he would propose to go not faster than ten miles an hour. The height of a passenger car- riage on a 3 feet 6 inch gauge would be about 7 feet 6 inches from the line, and he had repeatedly brought timber down the Dun Mountain line piled on the trucks eight foot high. He proposed a tunnel 25 chains in length on the proposed line, and he could then get a gradient to approach it at one in fifty. He mentioned that contractors' en- gines were of the best description, and that all disability in engines of 4 feet 8½ inches gauge, to go up gradients of one in fifty, had been effectively done away with since the year 1841. It was more advantageous to the country to have a 3-feet 6-inch gauge railway than to have a 4-feet 8½-inch one, and would be up to all the work required were it six times more than that already calculated for. The cost of the railway under consideration would be at a rate of about £9000 per mile ; the other portions to Dalby and Warwick would be about £5000 per mile. He had never tried a 3-feet 6-inch gauge railway with engines upon it ; but was satisfied that the engines would work up to from 35 to 40 tons each on the proposed line without fear of accident, nor would there be any chance of accident from top weight. He had examined the range and the conntry, and was satisfied he could get fifteen miles to get up the range and on to the Downs. He would not reach the Downs, however, at the same point as that where the tramway came out. The line generally would be of a very

light character.


The hon. Dr. HOBBS moved the adjournment of the house. The motion was opposed by the hon. B. J. SMITH. and when the question was

put it was negatived, and the examination con-


The hon. Dr. HOBBS desired to know the nature of Mr. Fitzgibbon's engagements with the


The hon. J. BRAMSTON thought such a question should be put to him ; and in answer to the  

question put to him, he said Mr. Fitzgibbon had no engagement with the government. He had been engaged to go over the line, make a "flying   survey," and report. He had done so, and there

was an end of it.

Mr. Fitzgibbon continued. The tramway plans had been checked by Mr. Plews, and compared by himself in his flying survey. The instructions received from Mr. Macalister were to report upon a line of railway from Ipswich to Toowoomba, Dalby, and Warwick, and all the papers in that gentleman's office - bearing on the subject - were placed at his disposal to do with as he chose. The quantities stated as between Toowoomba and War-

wick he believed to be correct, and was satisfied of it, as Mr. Mitchell, of Messrs. Tooth and Co.,

would undertake the work for the money. That was a good way of doing business he thought. It was usual that parliamentary plans should be dis- played in the House or Commons in the same way,   and he would say he had been examined on railway matters in the House or Commons. Did not think a better route existed- it was a mere matter of opinion. Did not think it would be advisable on account of expense to ask for a better route. Never saw any more than mere rough plans laid before parliament in similar cases. Never saw working plans or specifications produced. Considered a 3 feet 6 inch gauge the best standard gauge for the main trunk line of the colony. It would answer all the requirements of the colony for 100 years. The standard gauge in Ireland was 5 feet 3 inches. In England the standard gauges were 4 feet 8 inches, and 7 feet. Was not aware that the standard gauge of any country was 3 feet 6 inches. His idea that a 3 feet 6 inch gauge was the best for the colony was owing to his practical experience in other countries. The gauge which was sufficient, for a feeder to a trunk line in India was quite sufficient for a trunk line in this colony. In a 3 feet 6 inch gauge the colony would not be put to additional expense for rolling stock.

The hon. Mr. GALLOWAY here moved the adjournment of the house, which was opposed by the hon. R. J. SMITH.

The house divided with the following result :-

Contents, 4. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Non-Contents.

The hon. J. Harris . . . . . . . . The hon. E. I. C. Browne

J. Galloway . . . . . . .. . . . . . .St. G. Gore W. Hobbs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . F. F. Bigge D. F. Roberts . . . . . . . . . . . . . J. Bramston

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . F. North . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . H. R. Fitz

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . R. J. Smith.

Examination continued:- Thought that the evi- dence given by an engineer ten years ago, on a question of gauge, would be different to that given by him at the present time. The rolling stock in a 3 feet 6 inch gauge would not be so expensive as that in a 4 feet 8½ gauge. The best engine makers seldom or never kept engines of any gauge in stock. It was very often a compliment to get an engine from them. The comparative safety of the narrow gauge depended entirely upon the speed. Upon the incline at the radius of ten chains, ten miles an hour would be a safe speed. Never used a radius of less than twenty chains upon main line in England, ten chains   coming into a station, and five chains in the sta- tion. A contractor who had to send home for his rolling stock could do the work as cheaply as any contractor who had rolling stock in the colony. Was of opinion that the line to the Main Range could be constructed for £150,000. Knew a point at the Main Range where he could get up better than at the place proposed by the Tramway Com- pany. During the time of the railway mania, any rough plans had been laid upon the table in par- liament, and lines constructed upon them. In- tended to tunnel about 25 chains at the Little Liverpool Range, which would cost about £30 per yard. Had examined the price himself, and had employed men in New Zealand to tunnel. It might be done for £25 a yard, but would be much disappointed if it cost £50. Forgot what would be the greatest length of any viaduct necessary to be constructed. The viaducts could be built over the different creeks. Proposed to get timber in the Main Range to form the line be- tween Toowoomba and Dalby. The cost for sur- vey and superintendence was generally at the rate of £400 per mile. It included the permanent sur- vey and setting out the work, preparing the plans and specifications, and general superintendence of the work whilst it was being executed ; it included a large actual working staff, and a large office staff. The expense in India was about double the amount mentioned. There would be no difficulty hereafter in widening the gauge. The reason that a narrow gauge in the colony costs so much more than the same gauge in other places was owing to the surface features being different. This concluded the evidence of Mr. Fitzgibbon.

Upon the question that the bill be read it second time being put,

The hon. Dr. HOBBS proposed the adjourn- ment of the house, in order that, other witnesses might be examined.

The hon. F. NORTH opposed the adjournment.   The hon. E. I. C. BROWNE supported the adjournment. If the hon. gentlemen opposite had been allowed to call witnesses, it was only fair that the hon. Dr. Hobbs should be allowed an opportunity of calling witnesses.

The hon. J. J. GALLOWAY supported the motion for adjournment.

The hon. R. J. SMITH did not think any ad- journment was desirable.

The PRESIDENT thought it was necessary that some further consideration should be given before a decision was arrived at on a question in- volving such a large expenditure, and of such vital importance to the country. He should be sorry to think that the government intended to pass the second reading by a surprise.

The hon. T. BRAMSTON thought that the hon. member should give notice of his intention to examine more witnesses. The government did

not wish to press the second reading unnecessarily, but he certainly could not see that any necessity existed for taking up another day in examining


The hon. H. B. FITZ opposed the adjournment. The hon. Dr. HOBBS hoped that the govern- ment, would not press the second reading of the bill that evening.

The hon. J. BRAMSTON would consent that the debate should be adjourned, in consideration that the other business on tho paper should be pro-

ceeded with.

The proposal of the hon. gentleman wes agreed to, and the debate was adjourned until next day, to take precedence of all other business.


The above bill was read a third time and passed. REAL ESTATE OF INTESTATES BILL.

The order of the day for the second reading of the above bill lapsed, in consequence of the absence of the hon. gentleman who had charge of the bill.


The consideration in committee of the above bill was postponed until the following day.


The above bill was read a third time and passed.


The house went into committee for the purpose of considering the amendments in the above bill made by the Assembly.

The whole of the amendments of the Assembly were put, in globo, and were assented to.

The house assumed, and the report of the com- mlttee was adopted, and a message to that effect was ordered to be transmitted to the Assembly.


The house adjourned at ten minutes after eleven until three o'clock the following (this) day.