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Tuesday, Dec. 5.

The President took the chair at 27 minutes to 5 o'clock.


The following new members were sworn   in and took their seats: -Mr. C. J. Ham, Melbourne Province introduced by Dr Hearne nnd Mr Sargood Mr. F. E. Beaver, North Yarra Province introduced by Messrs. Balfour and Jenner; Mr. D. Melville, Southern Province introduced by Sir W. J. Clarke and Mr Robertson; Mr. F. Ormond, South-western Province introduced by Messrs.   Cuthbert and Russell; Mr. G Meares, North Yarra Province introduced by Messrs. Jenner and Stanbridge, Mr. D. C. Sterry, Northern Province, introduced by Messrs. Zeal and Robertson; Mr J Williamson Nelson Province introduced by Messrs Cumming and Russell Mr James Bell

North-western Province introduced by   Messrs MacBain and M'Culloch Mr. D.   Coutts, same province introduced by Messrs Kobertaon and Fitzgerald.


The following petitions were presented -By Mr TnouNLEY from residents of Warrnambool in favour of the extension of the Koroit rail way to the seaboard by Mr Andehsov from tho Sale Borough Council in favour of railway extension from Sale to Bairnsdale na Stratford instead of Maffra by Mr BALFOUR(two) in favourof the substitution of Oakleigh for Ring vood as the startiug point of thelern treeGully line by Mr Buouwvv from inhabitants of Gembrook praymi, that the claims of that place to improved means of communication uiic,ht be considered and intimating their rilhngness to accept a horse tramway for the present b) Mr Stvmmidgi from Dawlesford in favour of the continua tion of the line from Creswick as far as Daylesford, bj Mr ¿ial from the same place to the same elîect by Mr Stkriu from Sandhurst mining managers infivour of the re insertion of the Sandhurst to Heath cote line in the Railway Bill


That ti ero be laid on ti o table of this ITouse o return slowing the foliovlng particulars -Tho amount of monoy lent advanced or given for water works tr water suppl) purpos s to each ol the s 1res borough* and othor local or public bodlos or trusts (exccj t tile Yan lean water suppl)) In thecoloay ti o amount each has agreed to [ ay has paid balancoot princlf al due, amount of interest on each such loan or advance tho Interest paid tie Interest duo In each case with names and arno mts respectively, the aggregate of tile abov e details rcspoctlvoly

Agreed to


Consideration of this bill in committee was resumed

Mr \\ ALLACr suggested that before any thine, further was done steps should be taken with a \iew to Becunng the better manage ment of the existing railways Perhaps it would be well to lay aside £¿00 000 of the available money as an accident (and The accident on the Hawthorn railway was a further proof of tbe necessity of better


Mr BOSS said it was decided last week that evidence should be taken about the Koroit to Glen Thomson line and he would like to 1 now whether evidence for or against the line ought to be taken ii rat

Dr DOBSON replied that the second read hil, haunt been agreed to, the opponents to any of the lines ought to bring forward their evidence before the supporters tendered


Mr HANNA considered that the estimates of the Government for the cost of the lines lu the bill were too little by a million and a half of money Ihe bill would involve the country in great responsibility and some of the lines were political onea which would not ina thousand j ears pay for the grease re quired for the trains Ihe committee really

wanted reliable information about the lines and he waB in favour of the appointment of a body of experts to visit the districts for the purpose of obtaining reliable informa tion He had seen a docaraont signed by Mr Zeal and the engineer m chief in which they Bald their estimate of the cost of linea might be exceeded by 2o or 50 per cent and the committee could judge what that meant He knew in fact that Borne of the linea would cost IjO per cent more than those gentlemen had


It waB decided to take evidence respecting aub section 3 Koroit to Glen Thompson line

Mr George Hen y Mott was called as a witne68 He state I in reily to Mr Cuvi

mino that ho was secretary to the Hamilton lanilwn) League Ihe people of Hamilton Colerati e and other places to the weat vard o Hamilton objected to the Koroit hue gomt, o Glen IhoniBonbecnuao they considoredit would stop the corni letion of the Black line which was original!) intended to run from Geelong to Hamilton and thence to the western border M bat the people in his diatnct desired was that the hue from Koroit should when i reached about 1 et shurst run on to Hamil ton inBtead of na now proposed to Glen Thompson A line to Hamilton wo ild pa) fir better ihnn one to Glen ihompson aidir would also form portion of tho Bhck line lhere was no population between PenBhurBt nnd Glen Ihomaon and there ?were Eeveral Bmall towtiBhips botveen Penshurst and Hamilton lhere were 10 inhabitants at Glen Ihomaon and between 2 900 and 3 000 at H-tiiullon A great injury ?would be done to Hamilton if the line were taken to Glen lhomson because it would divert trade from Hamilton which had hitherto come to it

To Mr HANNA -He had reBided 14 )ears in the Hamilton district and was a journalist hy profession

To Mr ¿\ AL-The people of Belfast and Warrnambool agitated for seven )ears in favour of a line to Hamilton About 3 000 bnlee of wool were non carted yearly from the Hamilton district to the port of Belfast which could go b) rail if the hue were run to Hamilton Ho »dieted the Irnrat ajJ Hamilton line paid well

To Mr OR V11AM -He thought that a line from Kore it to Hamilton would suit tho people m the Koroit district better than one to Glen Thomson lectu°o it would open up Hamilton and Coleraine and the vestern district na a market for their produce as nell es the northern districts of tho colony

To Dr HPARN-It waa very deBirablo to complete the Black line to the weatern border in order to secure a large amount of Victorian wool which was now sent to a South Australian seapoit

To Mr KLSS1 LL -There waa a popula tion of from 1 000 to 1 500 between Pens hurst Mid Hamilton

Mr William Smith was the next wit

ness He stated he wbb the borough Burvej or of Hamilton lhere were already cou venienceB for n junction at Hamilton Pro duce from Belfast for the W mimera district generally went vi t Penshurst and Hamil


To Mr ROSS -Believed the proposed line joined the Ararat and Hamilton railway at Strathmore

To Mr BALI OUR -Tho Strathmore route waa very easy of construction

Mr Joshua Vines coach proprietor was the next witness lor passenger tralhc the Penshurst and Hamilton route would he Baid be better than tho other The natural course

of truffle in that part of the country was to Hamilton The Black line from Terang to Hamilton, waa one of the beat that could be constructed Hamilton was the postal centre of the western district Would not think of running a coach from Peushurst to

Glen thomson

To Mr ROSS -Knew nothing about goods traille lhere waa|a good deal of traille be tween the country about the South Aus tralian border and Belfast and Warrnatn bool, and that traflic would be taken 30 miles out of Ha way if tho Koroit line were carried lo Glen Ihomaon

Mr. John S. Jenkins, road engineer and sur- veyor stated in answer to Mr. Cumming, that he had been an engineer for 28 years ia the \\ estern district for different local bodies ii hero were no engineering diflTcultiea in the wa) of a railroad line running either be tween Penshurst mid Glen Thomson or be tween Penshurst and Htmilton Ihe Koroit line would not pay unless it were extended to the Ben const He would recommend at pre Bent that it should be extended to Belfast in preference to Warrnambool because the facilities for loading and unloading produce and gooda were better at Belfast than at Warrnambool, and would continue to be ao until the port of Warrnambool waa improved A line from Belfast via Hamilton to Coleraine could be worked very economically, because a train could be run right through

To Dr HEARN -He did not think Koroit would get bo good a market for ita potatoes if the line were taken net Glen Phomaon as if it were taken to Hamilton becauae the northern districts were already Bupphed from Ballarat and Gordons and if Koroit potatoes

were sent northwards they would nave to compete 'with the Ballarat and Gordons produce

Mr Anderson M L A in answer to Mr

Ross Baid he bad been a farmer m the Koroit district since 1844 The produce of the diB trict was chiefly potatoes There waa Borne inland trade from the district, principally towards Ararat, but it would be much greater

if the line to Glen Thomson wero made The potatoes from Koroit if t ik ti to the northern and north western districts would not compete with those from Ballarat aud other places for the reason that potatoes ripened n uch enrher about Koroit thin in other places and could I esold and consumed before ti e Ballarat or Gordon potatoes were tlrccd on the market lhere was some trnlhc from Koroit towards Hamilton hue the complaint of the Koroit far n era was that about two loads of potatoes glutted ti e Hamilton market (Laughter ) He believed there would be a very good potato trade to the northern and i orth western districts if the Koroit to Glen 1 homson line were constructed Did not know how the Black line could serve the people of Koroit Belfast and Warrnambool seeing that it would run a good di"tance to tie northward of Koroit The universal opinion of the people in the Koroit and Warrnambool districts was lhat if the pro poBed line were diverted from Glen Thomson to Hamilton it would be spoilt altogether The cost of carriage of potatoes would be u creased before they reached the northern districts so much that if ljd per ton per mile were charged as carriage it would make 30-> per ocre difference to the farmer who produced the potatoes

lo Dr HLARN -Several old residents of the Koroit and adjacent districts or their BonB had settled in the northern districts and there would be considerable interchange of produce between these parts of the colony if there was a railway to Glen Ihompson

lo Mr LORIM! R-The potato traflic to the north would last about four months in the)ear Ihe proposed railwa) would tend to íncreuse the cultivation in the Koroit dis tnct lhere would be other things to carry on Ihe Ino 1 eeidea potatoes lhere would 1 e dair) produce and a good de ii of wheat for inBtai ce brought down to Koroit and the surrounding districts

To Mr CU1 HBElvT-Brighton compete with Koroit for the aupply of the metropolis with potatoes about December when the early potatoes were ready JuBt the time when the early potatoes were ready the farmer could not cart them northwards because of the harvest operations Waa perfectly serious in saying he had heard formers declare that the Hamilton market for potatoes was glutted because another dray load had got to the township before theirs

To Mr RUSSELL-There would be no necessity for going to much expenditure for a railwa) station at ¡strathmore or Glen


ToMr M CULLOCH -0 vmgtothepotatoes coming in earl) at Koroit that place could supply the northern localities if the proposed railway waa made when such localities could not get potatoes elsewhere Unripe potatoes could not be senf to the northern districts now and by the time the Koroit potatoes became ripe other districts were able to suppl) such [ roduce The representatives of about 23 000 peoi lo in the Koroit aud other

districts had declared ni favour of the direct line

To Mr TnORNLI Y -The Koroit to Warrnambool section of the railway would pay better than an) other

To Mr riTZGLRALD-Believed a line from Koroit to Belfast would ni e vise


To Mr CUUMIXG-Believed the Koroit people would as soon see the line atruck out of the bill as taken to Hamilton

To Mr BROMELL -Koroit could supply some districts with potatoea when auch d13 tncts could not get them anywhere else

Mr James Duffus ma)or of Koroit said in onBwer to Mr Ross that between oO 000 and b0 000 tons of potatoea were exported annually from Koroit and the district around The people of the district desired the line to bo taken to Glen Ihomaon and had a very great objection against its going to Hamilton J he various members of the Koroit Borough Council bad m fact au housed lum to say they would almoBt rather be without a line than have one to Hamilton

To iVr LORIM! P -If the line were taken lo Hamilton it would add 2s Gd per ton on the carnage of potatoes before they reached the northern and north western districts and that meant a reduction of 30s per acre to the


To Dr HI ARN -The completion of a hue from Ararat to Avoca would beneht the people of bis district if the Koroit to Glen 1 homson line were constructed

Mr James Bromfield president of the shire of Warrnambool stated in answer to Mr Ross that great benefit would arise to his district by the line to Glen Thompson. The farmers in the district all objected to the proposed deviation to Hamilton. In his opinion rail   ways should be made from Koroit to both Belfast and Warrnambool.    

To Dr HLARN -Ihe Black line would not be of any advantage to the potato trade becauee it would Irîtoo far off for the formera to cart their prod'lce to it If the black hue vere continued farther on towarda Hamilton it would benefit the districts through which

it rnn

Mr ANDERSON drew attention to the

fact that a great number of witnea»ea were |

called about the line and they generally gave the same kind of evidence

Mr CAMPBELL suggested that onl) three win es6es should bo called to givi» evidence retí ectmg any line and asked if a motion to

that effect could be made

Mr 71 AL pointed out that the time had been taken up this evening b) witneB3es called in opposition to the line proposed and in support of another which waa not in the


Mr MACB VIN thought it would Bcarcely be fair to say that only three witnesses should be called for each line as some hon mern berB might deBire to call more

Mr Thomas King produce dealer of Warnambool waa called by Mr Roaa and Btated he strongly approved of the Glen J homson or direct route and objected to the proposed diversion to Hamilton

lo Mr THORNLEA -Did not think that the cor tinuation of the line to Warr nambool would affect the Belfast trade

Mr Andrew Kerr ehireengineerof Mortlake ai d 01 e of ti 0 councillors of the borough of W am nmbool said the) agreed with all Mr Ai dereon s evidence except the statement that ti e ptople to tho south would sooner ) ave ti e lu e struck out of the bill than taken to Uamiltoi

ToMr THOIMLY-If the railway was constructed ti"ere v otild be a large quantity of hmeBtone sent from Warrnambool north wards

Tina closed the evidence on this Bub


In reply to Mr Cltudeut

Dr DOBSON snid ho did not propose to ask the committee to come to a decision on an) disputed line until time for reading the evidence had been allowed

Hie next subsection laken was No 0 Coburg to Somerton

Mr Andrew M Ivor surveyor of the borough of Brunswick waa called by Mr Balfour and »aid he preferred the Somerton to the Craigie burn route The Somerton route waa the ehorter It waa about six and a half miles long The Broadmeadowa route would be shorter by two miles but that line would be more expenBive to construct

lo Mr W ALLACE -Nearly all the timber used at Brunswicl caine from the North Lastern line

ToMr MELULLE- W hen theBruuswick brickfields were exhauate I fresh fields would be developed at Campbellfield through which the line to Somerton would pass J hia lino would easo the traffic on the North I astern railway

ToMr BUCHANAN-If a line were taken from Coburg to the Plough Inn at Campbell

field it could be run from the latter place to Broadmeadowa but it would be at right angles or rather turrung back because the Hough Inn waa about a mile further north

than Broadmeadowa was

ProgresB was then reported on the under standing that evidence should bo taken next 1 lgbt respecting tho Coburg and Somerton the Ararat and Avoca and tho Beaconsfield linca at d if posBible respecting the Lance field and Kilmore line


TI e House adjourned at 11 o clock unt next day


TiihSDvi Dec 5

The SiEVkEit took the chair at half past 1

0 clock



Sir BR\ AN O LOGHLEN Bald that he re gretted to have to announce to the House that a very serious accident occurred last Saturday evening upon the Hawthorn railway line It waB with deep regret that he made the announcement as there had been serious losB of life and personal injury and Buffer ing He felt a great deal of sympathy and ho was Bure all hon members would sympathise with the Bufferings of thoae who had been injured (Cheera ) The Government would take every Btep possible to make a full and searching investigation into the matters connected with the accident The inquest had beau opened before the coroner and the Government would take care that the fullest evidence Bbonld bo brought forward with a view of ascertaining who wag the person wbo should be held

culpable for the accident Ho tra ted the matter would not be discussed in th- House while the inquest waa proceeding. (" Oh, oh")

Mr GILLIES was glad that the head of the Government had given bon membera an opportunity of Baying a word or two upon the subject, but he was sorry he did not conclude by informing the House that the Government intended having a complete alteration in the existing management of the railways (Loud cheers ) He (Mr. Gillies) ventured to think that probably this was the best opportunity the Houbb ever had for bringing itself face to face with the daily in creasing difficulties which Burrounded the Government m the management of the lines In fact the matter had become so serious that the attention of Parliament was bound to be drawn to it, and the subject should bo dealt with at once. (Hear, hear ) It was of infinitely greater importance than the Land Bill for instance (Cheers ) The possibility that the lives of hundreds of per- sons might be sacrificed at any moment was of far too serious importance for the Govern- ment to say that they intended to make a searching inquiry No uoubt they would make a searching inquiry No one would imagine that they could do otherwise They would do it from their own natural feelings, apart from public grounds altogether But they were bound to deal with it from a higher standpoint than appeared to be their view et present lhere was a bill on the paper to deal with the management of the railways, but hon members knew in what Bort of a way that was to be done It was not to be done in such a way as would relieve the country from the gross abuse of political patronage 1 or instance, and he believed such a thing was taking place almost daily, the Minister of Railways sent a circular to members of the Opposition, saying that there were certain vacancies in the department and asking them to nominate someone to HU


Mr BENT -That is simply not true

Mr GILLIES -I can only say that I was told bo on what I consider good authority.

Mr MIRAMS -You mean the Ministerial side.

Mr LONGMORE -Did you ever get

one '

Mr GILLIES -I am not a member of the Opposition

Mr. MIRAMS -That is the first I have heard of it

Several Oitosition Members -"Hear,


Mr BENT did not wish to say anything about the accident, but he certainly could not allow a statement of that kind to go unchallenged He desired to mention that no such circular was issued to one side of the House or the other, and uo îutimation of

vacancies was given

Mr GILLII S said that the rules of Parlia ment required that he should accept the lion member b statement, but he could say, m justification of Ins remark, that he did not make it hurriedly, but on the authority of a gentleman who said ho had seen such a com


Mr PEARSON -Hear, hear

Mr GILLIES would not refer in an; way to the particulars of the unfortunate accident any further than to Bay that he feared that the lenonnel of the Railway department, in consequence of the new appointments, had become seriously deteriorated

Sir BRYAN O LOGHLEN rose to a point of order There was no questiou before the chair, and the hon member was not in order in addressing the House

Mr GILLIES would conclude with a motion He was not saying moro than was within the cognisance of numbers of hon members who travelled on the various lines, that the new appointments were evidently not of such a character as would justify the House or the country in believing that the men who were chosen were fit for their places The making of appointments in the Railway department was becoming a much more serious matter than it was a number of years ego, in consequence of the considerable in crease made in the number of trains running on the lines They required the attention of skilled men, not men who were appointed jeeterday and put into their places today w itbout any training whatev er 1 hey required some S or 12 months training before they were able to properly perform their duties, and it required the greatest possible caro and attention to Bee that tho appoint menta were of a character that would Becuro the best men for the state

But so long as the rail wa) a were in charge of the Government, and the Government had to comply with applications from various quarters, they were compelled to make political appointments The Government should be relieved from that responsibility -(cheers)-and be was sure bon members on both sides of the House would be glad themselves to be relieved from the applica dons which where constantly being made to them, not only at their places of buameaa, but at their homes and at the House to make application to the Minister o Railways for some billet in hia department (Cheers ) It would become a Berious matter unless the Government were prepared to deal with the question, and deal with it at once He sincerely hoped also that the Minister of Railvvajs would poy much more attention to the brake question than he had up to the present Every one knew, it was said all over the town, that if either the Woods brake or the Westinghouse brake had been on those trains the accident would not have happened. (Cheers ) Attention had been directed during the last few days to serious complaints made by the representatives of the "Westinghouse Company, that the bon gentleman had not given them fair play They said some time ago, it ap- peared, that they would be in a position to supply a certain number of brakes in a certain time, and they were told that they were not


Mr LONGMORE - The Minister of Rail vv ays was perfectly right not to take them.

Mr GILLIES -It would be better to im port a thousand brakes from England and lit them on in bix weeks, than that the Minister of Kailnaj a should be allowed to kill hun- dreds of people (Cheers )

Mr LONGMORE -It isa political movo

Mr GILLIES -It was a monstrous pro position that because the department was not in a position at the moment to manufacture the necessarj number of brakes to protect human life, the bon member for Ripon and Hampden would rather see a loss of human life than Bee the Government import


Mr LONGMORE-The hon member is imputing to me what I never said, and what 1 did not think of saying

Mr GILLIES could not understand what other inference could be drawn from the statement

Mr LONGMORE _now much is the Westinghouse Company giving you'

Mr GILLIKS -There was nothing clearer than that if either of the brakes had been on the trains the accident would not have happened, and the House had a right to ask why the trama had not been fitted with one

of them

Mr MIRAMS- Because The Al gu-, would not let them adopt Woods brake

Mr BERRY -Why did you not fit Wooda brake to the trains '

Mr GILLIES-The hon gentleman waa in ofiice, and he and bia colleague had an oppor tunity of putting a number of the brakes on the carriages, of which he did not avail him- self But it was no good going back to the paBt Por a considerable timo ithadbeen recognised that one or other of the brakes Bbould be adopted, especially eeemg that during the last 12 or l8 months the number of trains had been increasing daily on the Bubarban lines They ran every few minutes, and it waa necessary that they should bo pulled up quickly at every Btation It was impossible to run thoso trains with any degree of Bafety unless some better brake than the hand brake woa fitted to the trama When the Govern ment undertook to run those numerous trama, they should havo had one or other of the brakes put on to them Was there anything to préventif What waa the insuperable difficulty ' There waa none A serious responsibility rested upon the lion gentleman for not having been Buflicientlv active in thie matter There was an idea abroad that one branch of his de- partment would not move at all, and that he could scarcely make them movo That should be looked to At any rate, it was felt that if the departmant had done its duty with reference to the brakes, the accident could not have happened He had no doubt that a large amount of compensation would be required on account of tbo accident It would be a much larger amount than waa required for the Jolimont cases, and he thought that the payment of the money could not be left with the Railway depart- ment. That ample compensation would nave to be paid there wbb not the slightest ques- tion, and the House would not grudge poy ment to the sufferers who might be maimed. 'Hie Railway department was not the department to asBess the amount to which each would be entitled The claims would require to be carefully investigated, and the Government Bbould appoint an inde- pendent board to see that juBtice waa done, not only to the unfortunate persona who were injured, but aleo to the state (Hear,


Dr. QUICK.-Without too great an ex-


Mr. GILLIES would not say anything

about the expense because he waa Bore that any reasonable claim the state might be called upon to pay the unfortunate sufferers would not be grudged by uny hon member Before the debate woa concluded he hoped the Minister of Railways would be in a position to inform the House that the character of the bill which he intended to mtroduco for the better management of the railways would be totally different from that indicated in the Governors Bpeecb That bill would not satisfy the House at all (Cheers }

Sir BRYAN O LOOHLEN roBe to order The bon member was not in order in discua Bing a bill now on the notice paper

Mr GILLIES said that he merely referred to the bill Ho did not discuss it Ihe par ticulars of it were referred to m the Gover nore speech and he was now telling the Government that under the new state of things the House would inaiat upon their in troducing n very different bill-one which would relieve the Government of the whole of tho political patronage of the department (Cheers ) The railways had reachod auch a magnitude that it waa impossible to maintain the present ByBtem of management There v\ as a Minister who ran all over the country banquetting nnd Beeing which would be the best linea What did he know about the routeB of lines? Nothing whatever If the Government were prepared to divest them selveB of political patronage the colony would be able to secure the beat young men for the railways who would be selected by an Hide pendent board Bubject to certain regulations eanctioned by Parliament Lveryone could see then under what conditions employment should be obtained and would know that ap pointmenta were not at the will of a MiniBter 01 Hallways or a member of Parliament Unless that was done the country and the House would not be Batisfied He wished to refer to another matter which was of serious im portance as it might lead any day to an acci

dent There waa an embankment a little below Spring street near Jolimont to which additions had been made from time to time lhere was a calvert through it but it had been filled up and in conse quence a large volume of water sometimes two or three feet deep was collected near the line The water had Boaked into the embankment and be was informed that the culvert having been filled up with aand or Borne other inferior stuff the whole lot of it sank and left the rails and sleeperainmid air If auch an occurrence had happened at night hundreds of people might have been killed Some steps should be taken at once to have another channel made whereby the flood waters could escape If an accident happened there the Government could not be held irresponsible after the warning they had received No one held them re eponsible for the unfortunate catas

troche oi the other day or Baid that they conld have prevented it by any individual action, but they were bound to alter the system of management and take care that the department waB placed in auch an improved position that Buch accidenta could scarcely hanpen in the futute He mo/ed the ad journment of the Houee (CheetB )

Major SMITH seconded the motion

Mr BENT Baid he waB not in Buch a frame of mind after the aad occurrence to enable him to discuss thematter He believed that no one in the House would say that he had anything to do with the accident

Mr MUNRO -That is aaid outaide

Mr L L SMITH.-That ia the moat uu generous thing you have said in the House

Sir BRYAN OLOGHLEN-It ia most unjust

Mr MUNRO-I dont know that it is unjust and I don t know that it is untrue

Mr L L SMirH-Itiaaahime

Mr BENT -A number of his dearest frienda had been injured in the accident It waa known by hon members that ever since he had been in the depart ment it had been his sole desire to provide for the safety of the public He had duplicated the line to Oakleigh and he had removed a considerable portion of tbo high point at the South Yarra junction m order to give thednversoftrainsaclearsightof the rails I he hop member for North Melbourne knew that and he knew also that in the Railway Bill he provided for bringing in another line which would provide for the Bafe work ing of the lines Ile also proceeded to duplicate the Hawthorn line on which the accident happened Tor 2j years it had been worked and had become quite rotten W hen the new line was nearly finished it was d13 covered that the Hawthorn bridge was so dangerous that it wob a wonder that it had not tumbled into the Yarra A box with interlocking apparatus had just been erected on the line and when he thought everything was in a good B ate, what were his feelings when be heard of the accident' He found when ho went into the department that the single line from Kensington to Lssendon was a source of danger and he duplicated it

He also duplicated the line to Brighton Ile had done ever) thing mortal man could do to prevent an accident I he hon member for Kodnej had spoken of political appointments He (Mr Bent) would a°k any man in the House whether the charge the bon member brought ngaiUBt him was true If ho made an appointment m the department it was subject to the approval of the principal ofl eera who were responsible lhere never had been Buch strict examina tionB aa to the efficiency of the eight of applicants for employment and some gentle men had told him that they understood that he had made auch arrangements with the medical officer that he would not let one Ebbs Take every one from the top to the

ottom vv ho were concerned in the accident The stationmaeter had been at Hawthorn for many j ears He was looked upon aa being such a good officer that he (Mr Bent) and the traffic manager were conBi

dering only last week whether or not they would promote him By the people of Hawthorn he was told that he was one of the best men in the department He had been in the employment of the late company for years Ihe officer who made up the time table was appointed by the lion mern ber for Stawell He (Mr 1 ant) had not appointed any one over the heads of the oil eera in the traffic department He had never yet exercised any patronage to place men in positions in the department He had left the engineer in chief to select practical men and the most he himself had done waa to appoint a porter or a greaser now and again He courted the most searching investigation into his conduct since he had administered the de partaient As to the embankment at Joh mont he would inform the House that his attention had been directed to it by the hon member for the Ovents and then he wrote to the engineer and afterwards spoke to that ofl cer and wbb told that it was perfectly


Mr WALSH-The water ia 3ft deep

Mr WALKER-And it cannot get away

Mr BENI -I have nothing to do with it Wo know the water ia there but am I to overrule the profeBaional men'

Mr ORKN1 Y -The travelling public will think that you have aomething to do with


Mr GILLirS -Did the engineer say that it was perfectly proper that there Bhould be 3ft of water there ' No engineer could aay


Mr BrNT -There waB another statement regarding the brakes made by the hon mern ber which he did not expect from an old colleague Woods brake would have been on all the trains if it had not been for him (Opposition cheers ) What did the hon gentlemen charge him with because he held five wretched abares m the company which he did not buy for purposes of speculation ? The hon member said that he had been lax regarding the brakes He would tell the House what he had done He had it placed on the trains on tbe Brighton line He had always maintained that Woods brake was a good one All the new engines were fitted with a ateam brake-Woods brake and there was one on the tram from Box hill

Mr WALSH -W aa it on the train '

Mr BLÍST -No it was on the engine People as naual were wise after the event 1 ut had an) member ever aald in the House

I ot W coda brake on all the trama '

Mr MUN] O-I have challenged you to do so two or three times

Mr BLNT said he had called for tenders and had been getting the Woods brake made when the Weatinghouae people asked that their patent might have a chance and then he arranged that both bral es should be fitted to trains on the Brighton line upon which they should run in competition for 12 months Hisobject waa todetermme which was beet and having also a desire to recommend one for adoption when he brought down his eBtimateB he naked the WeatiiigbonBO people to permit him to call for tendera for their apparatus bo that he might make a truthful statement to the House as to the cost of the brakes The local agent for the Westing house brake refuaed to comply with hia request and said if he would take a certain number of sets they would supply them by a certain time He declined to take any sets on these terme because be knew the cost at which Woods brake could bo got and that it was a good apparatus The department in short, wbb prepared to apply Woods brake, unless as good a one conld be obtained ut about the same figure They would do so now if the House would only give the authority (Hear hear ) But supposing that the House did order Woods brake to bs

applied generally, did they think this could be dono to morrow ? No, it could not bo done by magic Bat, he would BBk, had his predecessors applied continuous brakes, or were the lines and carriages m better condi- tion formerly than now 7

Mr MIRAMS -You put Woods' brake on, and you will be all right Never mind what

The Aram saya

Mr BENT aaid he had not been in a frame of mind to read the newspapers for the last day or two As to the statement of the hon member for Rodney about the WeBtinghouse Brake Company, if it waa baaed on a letter he (Mr Bent) had received from the agents, it was nntrue His (Mr Bent a) one endea vour had been to act fairly between the par ties He had been anxious to call for ten dera at once, and not to wait for the result of the 12 months competition, and ever since be had received the letter from tho agents of the Westinghouse Com pany refuBing permiBBion to call for tenders, he had had unaer consideration the question na to the beet way of giving the brakes a fair trial One officer recommended him to take the opinion of the House, an- other to send for the locomotive superinten- dents of three coloniea to report on the brakes, and Mr. Mirla, the locomotive super mtendent, advised him to test the brakes on tho 13th and 15th of December He had adopted Mr Mirla suggestion and was there fore moving ob fast as he could in the matter He had done everything mortal man could do for the safety of the public, and could now but ask - What board or body of men could have prevented what took place on Saturday ' (Hear, hear )

Mr MUNRO -Did you allow the special tram to bo run against the advice of your tra flic manager'

Mr BLNT - I did not, and I am ver much obliged to the hon member for nskin that question (Hear, hear ) 1 urther, I wa pressed to open the Lilydale line a fortnigh


Mr L L SMITH-\es IaBkedyou

Mr BENT -Outside partieB nr(,ed me 11 do bo, and some of my colleagues said I wa injuring the district by delaying the openm of the line In spite of the strongest politi cal pressure which was brought to bear t

get the line opened earlier than it was, I Bald ' No I waa guided in the matter by my officers, and did not allow it to bo opened until the first of the present month Then the running of the Bpecial train waa a pure matter of business, which was arranged by the department

Mr MUNRO -You knew nothing about


Mr BENT -Nothing at all The ordinary notice was given to the officers four days beforehand, and the arrangements were ndvertieed in the nerspapera

Mr WALSH-Why was not the staff system adopted'

Mr, BLNT -The Hawthorn line has never been anything but a single line, and has nev er been worked by the staff system It baa been worked on one plan for 20 yeara, and an alteration m the ayetem would have been more likely than anything else to lead to an accident In addition to that, wo for the block bj stem and interlocking ap paratas, and if wo had only had another fort night we would have had perfect safety There is another story to the effect that the Hawthorn Stationmaster asked for leave of absence on the strength of a medical ccrti

ficate that hiB memory waB failing him, and that he was refused The facts are that he applied for a month a leave of absence upon a certificate from Dr M Crea, that hia application waa granted, and that bo did not return to duty until two days aftor the month expired In the history or every railway ByBtem some of the best olhcera havo at tiraeB made mistakes, and that is just how the accident at Richmond happened I do not want, however, to go into that question now, as it is before a coroner and jury.

Sir BRYAN O LOG ELEN -Hear, hear

Mr BLNT said that if anyone wished to blame him for anything they could do bo And what he wanted for whomsoever waa liable for what occurred on Saturday was a fair field and no favour. No one regretted the accident more than be did, and when he was told of it anybody could have knocked him down with a feather No doubt it had caused a shock in the com munity but he hoped and felt sure that euch a thing waa not likely to occur again In all human institutions, however mis- takes were liable to happen, and did occur He had no need to say any more He had not come prepared to make any speech and in fact had asked the Premier to refer the matter, aB he (Mr Bent) felt unable for any business After all the care he had taken to insure public safety on the railways, the accident was to him a great disappoint ment Ho had, too, been making arrange menta for the convenience and safety of the public during the Christmas holidays He had Bent for new engines, and some of the new cnrriagea aimed the other day and no had looked forward to giving the public satis faction during the holiday season It was immaterial to him personally what action the House would take aa to the future manogement of the railways He had done his best and bad acted always on the best advice obtainable His visits to the country districts had been talked of aa junketing but he often felt that he would have enjoyed himaelf better in his own home His jour neyB were always taken for the purpose of making himaelf acquainted with the work in hand lo do this he had never «pared time or trouble, and the aucceas of the Rail way Bill waa the beat proof tha Ina elTorta had not been in vain He courted an inquiry into his administration, and would not shrink from allowing the fullest light to shine upon hia actions

Mr PATTERSON Batd it waa not sufficient that the Minister of Railways Bhould take credit for what he had done The question was how the preventible smash-that great calamity of Saturday-had occurred Mr I lsdon managed the suburban railwaya for 20 yeara without any accident, but ever since the preBent MiniBter had taken office accidentB had become of frequent occurrence The general management of the department waa grossly bad-nothing could be worse Had the staff system been in nse, or if the time table bad been sensibly made out, the accident would have been im possible The engine driver, too, was told at Camberwell not to pass Hawthorn until the Melbou'ne train arrived

Sir BR\AN OLOGHLEN-That matter ib before the Court

Mr PAT TERSON Baid he spoke on broader grounds lhe question before the coroner and jury was the death of the man Thomas, and an effort waa being made to implicate the Hawthorn station master only, but it would not bo a sufficient explanation to say that a station master loBt his head Better security againat accidents in the future waa wanted Itoughtto be madeutterly impossible for trains to meet each other on the same line of rails by the universal adoption of the staff system, which worked so well on the North Lastern railway

Mr DUITY -Did you ever hear of staff tickets '

Mr PAT PERSON said the staff system waa far more important than using continuous brakes to bring trama suddenly to a dead Btop when going at full speed

Mr. LONGMORE-You should have ap plied Moods s brake

Mr PATTERSON said he would not adopt WoodB s brake if he waa in office now, be- cause he considered that the Westinghouse brake was better If theBe brakes only had a fair trial, the public would see that the Vi estinghouae invention waa eaaier and better than Woods a Aa to the requeBt of the Minister of Railways, that the Westinghouse Company should band over all their plans and eectionB to him, bo that he might submit the manufacturing of the apparatus to public competition, it waa unreasonable and ab


Mr BENT -I did not oak them to do that

I merely wanted to call for tendera, bo that they might say aa well as othera how much their invention would coat I never asked them for their sections, but the policy of the country is to make theBe things in the colony (Hear, hear )

Mr PATTERSON said it was unreasonable to expect that the WeBtinghouse Company would allow outside people to make and perhaps destroy the value of their invention lhe \vestinghouse brake was to be bought at a price, and that price waa as well known na the cost of the Woods brake

Mr BENT-I aaked the Westinghouse agents their price, and they would not state it They merely said they would write home and inquire

Mr PATTERSON said he had not much faith m the Woods brake, but he thought it would be fair to have it for half our rail way Bystem, and the Weatinghouae brake for tbe other half But the present question waa that of railway management The railwaya would never be well managed until they were free from political control They ahould be under a perfectly independent board of men poBseaeed of some professional knowledge. Now was the time to take up the bill for the better management of the railwaya, and they ought to deol with it uefore ar.y other buai

ness Political patronage had been the ruin of the department, and the present Btaff of officera was utterly incapable of properly managing the large railway system we now possessed Mattera, indeed, had now come to such a pass that if tramways were running to the vailoua Buburba at present the public

would not enter the railway carriages. Let them then Btrlke the iron whilst it waa hot, by taking up the bill for tho better management of the railways If the pro- visions of that bill did not meet their views, he thought that under tbo circumatancea tho House would take upon itself the task of putting it into shape m committee. Some members harped on the phrase " Mm.sterial responsibility," but there was no auch re- sponsibility A Minister could not do any foolish or bad thing that would not be over- looked bo long aa his Government had a majority at its back. Any system was better than the present

Mr. HUNT-Why didn't you alter the syBtem when you wero Minister'

Mr. PATTERSON Bald he abolished the exercise, of political patronage in that depart ment. A fow gentlemen like tho hon mem- bers for KilmorelMr Hunt)and Maryborough (Mr. Bowman) who could not get from him billets for their friends, however, had subse- quently the impudence to say in the House that lie did not administer the department properly, Many of biB own friends bad also complained that they could not get from him what they wanted, and had Bald they could now get their wants attended to by the present Minister.

Mr GARDINER -Quite right

Mr. PATTERSON.-Thank you, sir.

Mr GARDINER-But you always looked after Number One (Laughter )

Mr. PATTERSON said that ho was also charged with favouring his Castlemaine friends, but that waa easily seen through He struck asevere blow at political patronage whilst Minister of Railways, but the present Munster had reverted to the old system lhere waB no mistake about it, the Railway department had corrupted the House Never waB the House so lowered aa when it waB wrangling for five months over tho last miser- able Railway Bill.

The SPEAKER-The hop. member is out of order in saying that the Uouao baa been corrupted.

Mr PA1TERSON did not think he waa

out of order.

Mr. L L SMITn.-What ' Not in aa)ing that the Houae ib corrupted'

Mr PA1TERSON.-I meant politically corrupted

Mr. WHEELER-You ought to be the last man to Bay bo

Mr. PATTERSON-If a board was ap pointed to manage the railways the Minister presiding over that department would not have his life tormented out of him, as had occurred under the present system.

Mr. WRIXON remarked that the feeling of the country on thia subject would be ill represented if the discussion wero to degene- rate into amere conflict between Ministers and ex MinisterB (Hear, hear ) Apart from that aspect of the question altogether, the pre sent Byetem of railway management was thoroughly rotten (Cheers) Ihe recent accident was directly attributable to the un soundness of the system, for which bon. members themselvea were mainly responsible (Hear, hear) The public would not allow talk about political patronage and sneers directed against a responBible board to pass unheeded , they would demand some altera- tion in the existing system. The extent of the mismanagement of the Victorian rail- ways might be gathered from the fact that on the London and North-Western Railway, in England, upon which milhoiiB of pasaengera annually travelled, there had only been one life loat during the paat 3J yeirs Under Btate management of railwa) s the injured people were defenceless, because they paid their own compensation , under private management it came out of the pockets of the shareholders and soon brought about a change On the London and North Western Railway there waB a general manager, with a salary of some ¿3,000 or £7,000 a year, and other officers who were paid in proportion, and it was duo to their incessant watchful- ness and care that the number of accidents waa comparatively so small, lbe ofhcials in Victoria were underpaid and could not be ex- pected to be men capable of doing their work properly, subject as they were to politi

cal influence The Minister was placed ina ver) difficult position, as he had to consider all aorta of questions, moat of which re luired special knowledge, and of which he waa pro bubly totally ignorant. All this could bo removed Ihe public wanted some change to be effected by which they would be able to enter the railway trama with some idea of safety. Unleaa the present system waa altered for the better, it would certainly get woree, because the tendency was always to wardB deterioration. A large number of new lines which were being constructed vv ere of an exceedingly dangerous character, if they might be judged by that running to Lilydale, and the management required in the future would be of a higher order than that at pre Bent needed (Hear, hear ) Whether a bouid Bbould bo appointed or whether the leading system should be adopted was for futuro con- sideration , the principle must first bo laid down that a chance was indispensable. The late accident was worse in ita effects thin a battle, becau»e women and children believing themeelves to be in safety, were injured, and because it could not have happened under proper management The Government should therefore bo deciaivel) told that the matter must be dealt with at once (Hear,

hear )

Mr WALKER observed that the Minister of Railways had entirely raiainterpreted the remarks of the hon member for Rodney in supposing them to bave been directed against himself personally. They referred only to the existing system of railway management. That s)stem waa thoroughly bad, and no better illustration of the fact could be given than that adduced by the Minister himBelf when speaking of his own doings in the department. What training had the bon gentleman bad qualifying him to judge of the relative merita of either brakes or bridgea ' Ho had very little, and his suc- cessor might have less The bon. member for Rodney could not be charged with not being alive to the faults of the present ejBtcm, because the Government of which he waa a member brought in a bill to remedy

them Iho alterations which had been made in the suburban traffic during the past few months were enough to bewilder an) number of officials Ihe time-tables were altered ver) frequently-whether by the political head of the department for the pur poBe of securing his own popularity could not be said ("Ob ) Had the staff ayatem been in operation on the Bingle line between Burnley - Btreet and Hawthorn tho accident could not have happened-(cheers)-because the whole reeponeibility would not have been placed in the hands of one individual, whose memory or judgment many things might conapire to uffect Iho present was a good opportunity for altering the present ayatem Public feel- ing waB earnestly in favour of a change, and it was tho duty of Parliament to act in accordance with it (Hear, hear )

Mr RICHARDSON regretted that such an important question should bo discussed on a motion of adjournment (Hear, hear )



Mr RICHARDSON.-lhe queation was one which ought to be closely and practically inquired into No one doubted that the acci- dent was a prev entibie one, and a full inves- tigation into the real cause of it was necessary. Ihe coroner's inquest would not bosullicient, aa it would simply be directed to discovering the cause of the death of the victim. The disaster was really attributable to the mis- management which had always exiBted in the Railway department, and if a proper inquiry had been held into the cause of the Jolimont accident the result would have been that a change would have been made in the system of that such a collision as that of Saturday could not have happened. There waB no railway in the world which had such a large percentage of accidents as the Vic- torian railwa) s had.

Mr DUTFY-Isthatafact' Mr. BENT -Prove it.

Mr RICHARDSON -It was a fact which ould easily be proved. As soon aa the preaent MtniBter of Railwaya took office he removed be general manager, who bad successfully wotked the Hobaon'a Bay railway for 20 yeara

He removed him after tho Jolimont accident happened, and it was n significant fact that the cause of that accident had never been fully revealed. A full inquiry into the recent collision would bring the capabilities of the present manager and Ina Btaff before the country, and would probably result in the appointment of persons possessing highor qualifications.

Mr BENT.-The Government have pro- mised an inquiry.

Mr RICHARDSON.-A Bimilnr promise waa given in reference to the Jolimont inquiry. What waB the value of that inquiry ' What did an)body really know aboutit ' He knew that the Railway department took shelter under the fact about the broken tire.

Mr. LONGMORE.-But somebody was responsible for that.

Mr RICHARDSON-Certainly. If the tire had been broken in England on any railway, and the evidence bad been given which came beforo the coroner's jury on the Jolimont accident, Bomebody would have been placed on bis trial for murder, and justly bo too. Tor the accident now under notice somebody rnuBt be held accountable, and he did not think the country or the Houee would be satisfied until such nn inquiry had boen held SB would show where the responsibility really waa, (Hear, hear )

Mr, C, YOUNG Bead, thg bon, member ha,d.

expended a large amount of virtuouR inj,

tlon aa to the Jolimont accident inn, «****' had alao alluded to tho form« î?.ff m the Hobson a Bay linesbut had hal"1186.'of that the Legislative Council had K«0'1«

committee on the question T & 8ele«

Mr RICHARDSON -Wo don t len*

thing about 11. ont kn°w any

Mr C \OUNG-Well if the hon m. e

did not know he (Mr Young)Td Är knew that the one witness who could h.h9 given most important informal on-.,,,«11 Heman to whom the hon memba E ? Creswick had referred - had cnS 0I eluded himself while tho com,nmllr !6, and the committee had come "^ ^

conclusion that it was the abm»n,»

that gentleman a evidence that A,.0 them coming to a satisfactory1^ Ä1

sion on tho subject matter of tho .» °

(Uear hear) He (Mr Young d d notT " to go into the question at lenah beT.,,!8

thought that discussion waa rathe,«.

ture but he must say that he hal I? amused at tbo hon member for CauiL.

declaring himself so much againsS "' of political patronage (llaigh) Wk. hon gentleman forget that on oneoccaVe,« when he was administering the dom?« °

between the issue of the wm Ä day of election he appointed to b«|A Guatlemamo men who were not renu 3 ? the de] artment' (I oud laughter) b'

Mr 1 Allí «.SON -It is not true

Mr YOUNG -Did the hon member .1.»

forsetwhat a number of men he hadca,t

mg about on the railway with free m " voting early and voting often ' (».".".

laughter) It was to say the lea t P?

rather ridiculouB for tin hon (.entlem.n.

pose in the House na one who did not K2 mpatronoge when it was a weil knov,n f. i

that he when.noffico exhausted every Í'

Bible kind of patronage ' m

Mr LONGMOIU observed that theremuit be faults aomewhero for this ' ",JU1U" cataatropho The hon member for CreV.Vr* and the bon member for Rodney had 2 uiBiBted upon that and it seemed to him tn»t

those hon gentlemen ouUit to h" 9 "a eluded by giving notice of a motion for th» appointment of a select committee °

Mr LANGRIDGl -And getan answerm

a year (Laughter) u

Mr PATH RSON-Like the PoliceCom

m.BB.on (A laukh) When will they fun ab

üb with their conclusions

Mr L0NGM0R1 was quite aura that, select committee in an emergency of thî kind could take up the matter and e , fully and completely in a ahort time A present bon members were talking in th

dark to a great extert If a comm te brought in a report blaming the Govemrnetit then out the Government ou(,ht to go (HW hear) In tho early part of the ducater.

the bon member for Rodney had enid that hi (Mr Longmore) was willing that peopla should be killed in every possible dir» t na rather than havo Westinghouso brakes ira ported But the bon member had m words into hia mouth which ho (Mt Lane more) repudiated absolutely

The SPLAKLR -That has all been nut right *

Mr I ONGMOItE -The present timewhen aB hon memberB would sa> the iron wn hot waB not the timo for calmly discus n Hub important brake question but he i J think it waa most inconsistent on the put of certain memberB to blame the Govern nut about brakes Mr Woods when he ima colleague of hiB (Mr LoDgmore) had been hounded and jelled at because he had pul hi brakes upon two trains but that gentlemsm brake had been tried and had been pro ed equal to any brake in ti e world and why 1 ad it not been generally adopted here Won


Mr MU AMS-Because TUA g j would

not bave it

Mr L^GMORr*-Tho hon member foi Castlen aine would not havo it Healghtei

tho bral o time after time and the lion mea ber for RoJnej also tefuecd to put noa. tor mai y years during which it as known there v ere good brui es to 1 e (,ot we had b en going on with a brake on the engine and one on the van and it was a perfect mira l»lbat there 1 ad not been many moro smashes on our railways He (Mr Ionfcmore) hada ona tin e epo! en to the then Chief Secretary (Mr Berry) about Woods brake as bens the best that had been produced in the colony or in the Southern hemisphere and Mr Leny was ju te wilhi 0 aud ai xious that t should bo employed only there was a dell cacy on the subject because of Mr Uoods position and members were contnaauy howling at lim-hoi gentlemen now in the Conservative Corner who wera crjingfor brukee » hen another aecidert had occaned It ru ght be that tie niOrmity of an on fortui ate Btationmaster hal cau»ed these two trains to meet but bad Woods brake ot lhe Weatirgbouso broke been on these t«o Irains thej could have been brought up M yards apait (Laughter ni d an lio

MnuEit- It ia only about 00 yards from tho station to v. here they met ) lie repeaM that had everj wheel of those two trains been under the command of a V\ oods or a W est nj houEO brake this calamity would have been averted and he held the bon member for Castlemaine and the lion member for Rodney mainly responsible for the accident o v nu to their oi poaition to the Woods bral e He dill not approve of their conduct in trying to raise a political ruction out of th sd ase (Uear hear ) A» for the member for Cas le maine he had worked up the Catholics theho tect onists and the Orangemen and he wooli work 1 imself up verj soon-(loud laut,htei} and the member for Rodney was the champ on of tramways which in Sydney had killed 1) 1 eople to every one killed on tbe\ictoni Railways He held that the Rouse was not competent to deal »vith this question no» and he deprecated the suggestion s to Beni to England for £o 000 a year men nnd the appointment of a Illilwa) Board Medid

not want another Harbour Irust ni rat)

colony Queensland had sent home for raen to take charge of her rail vaia and then had bad to clear them out and he knevi ol estab hehmenta in this colony which bal nevet been ettiBfied till they had got mmi"eta from the old country nnd wlen they lui got them they found that the) had l,ot tho ¡neatest duffers aud had lost dividends bj them lie was of op non that there were in the department as won engineers as the world could produce and was not to be taken in with the proposai to ape a money on bringing out mea who might m found absolutely incapable

Mr M COLL -W e sent for Mr Golden tor


Mr LONGMOI r-And the bargain was a bad one ( Hear hear and No no I u« would conclude by repeating that this wa » wronf, time for a political attack on the Min

latry (Uear hear )

Mr 1RASIR thought the House-.ja pretty unanimouslj of opinion that the system of management on our railwaja and (ne sjstem of patronngo waa a wrong one an« that it was one which rendered us abe lo accidenta of this kind Almost everrind vidual that had been appointed uponthert wajahad been appointed through some pal

tical patronage or other

Mr LANGRIDGl - Do you think it u

E°Mr TRASEl replied that he d d not thnk

the Minister would deny it Lvery *« did it and all future MmiBters would do »o» lone, na political patronage was recoRDise I» was not blaming the Ministry but the arate» lhe evils of this system of Pat^f intensified in the Railway departm n W reason of ao many lives being dependent on ita proper management Some action bdom betaken while this question T*?M" cnesed No matter what a Minister » I« « might bo he waa apt to be {orced'oW appointment or retention of Melesso law » pètent officers by the political mllue«

supporters and it was highly neces afto» there should be a board or comas'»'1" pointed to have ful power over thibm»' ment and dismiBsal of officers The Hn» fhould insist upon some 0°»^«$, Either the railways Bhould bo placed naee

management of a competent boari »

elect committee ahould be appointe»

nqnire into their management IMA, j a tem was »otten to the core In the otw ¿lomee, they would und better mnnagemet, and much more civility on the P«'

railway officiala He did not? Tf® the employés, but thei system t he traffic manager dared not do »

as he thought beat No other act.

mental head dared to do thing>J rf he might deem neceBsary m the inter

public safety and convenience «no »

brought out an ofl.eeJOT » £10 000 a year he wo»ld P»»»^ th the

humbugging and red tapeism ot " J,,^ ment He Mr 1 roBer) waa not

the present Minister but tnougn.,

if he had applied bimhBne, tCconntir \» office and leBS to going, »bou* 'ho coan would have been doing more goon

regard to the question of «ff''ÄVhvu!! he (Mr Traser hod tried the west; ^

brake in all the co onies and ho w ^ fectly certain that it was mû*í Joil to the Woods brake W "^n£,,',« waBueed on almost every wein now» 1¡0 in the world A return k'"k---j r "m

showed that it waa in nst;'» EnjfXnd W Belgium, Germany HmíJ Honan hm[h Sweden, India New South wai«. Unl,ed Australia, Queensland ana tno


T. ," -," iho Caledonian, Great Eastern,

SÄorthim. Glasgow and Soutb-Weatern

P,W.ihira and Yorkahire, London and ^th western , London, Chatham and S?.'london, Brighton, and South Coast; fÄd North British, North eastern, West Akhira railways, on four in Franco, and

SiffiS S the Umted States The Minister

uSd do one of two things-take either Soda brake or the Westinghouse. The Xr was not allowed to have a fair trot, mt.i Woods brake might bo unod on the Ballarat line, and the Weatinghouae on the

SNr BENT-Why, it was never tried till

this Ministry tried it.

it, rilASl i! -The Minister had prac

.,." great tact-he (Mr. rraser) had almost "d? oanipulation-with the bon. member for Stawell (Diaacnt)

Mr ETNT-Iho hon. member must with j,«vr lhat has been Bald behind my ba"k i "ill not allow it to bo aaid before my '"ihe SPEAKER said that the hon member ,. Hodney Bhould withdraw the remark.

Mr 1IIASLK withdrew the remark ob J ci to, but saul that Mr Woods was under «firm ¡¿pression that hta brake was to bo «Vented He (Mr 1 laser) had already shown tis the WcstinghouBO brake was used on

moat every railway in tho world. The eatcBt experts had tried to pick holes in it, "ut it was acknowledged tobe the brake which "¿e nearest of all to tho requirements of Se Board of Trade. If the member for I «well waa bo ßuro about his brake, why did heriot try it in otherparta of the world ' It was m\\ known that the whole reaourcoB of the rovernment Workshops, and probably tho huno" of the oflicers, had been taken advan ms of to render the Woods brake as perfec

m no Bible If n test wero to bo made, let it b» mado by disinterested experta, He ad- mitted that even the best brakes might not prevent nn accident on a wet dark nit'ht

Mr P lllEUSON -They are no remedy at 011 m euch a eise

jlr I KÄS] R -The only remedy wis tlanurg the eutiro system Since tho death of ibe former enkineer in chief (Mr Ihoma niiinbothom) there had not been an office in the department who dared to speak out (reel) »a he did Ile (Mr rraser) suggested that the bill for the better miuigem»ut of the state railwajs The Lind Bill mii'ht be important, but this waa far moro so.

Mr IISH1 It thought that this question miüit be more important than the Land Lill, botwith this difference-that the Land Bill ivas op/a os to their meeting that du). Be jond expressing their sympathy with the un fortunate sufferers by that diaaater, the llmiec waa going completely out of its pro vince Hon members wero standing, meta ihoncally speaking, as chief mourners at the bier of fiat min rho passed away bo sud- denly, and what were they doing' One lion member indulged m a favourite hobby, one had a Hing at tho Minister of Railways, an- other a Hing at the whole Ministry.

Mr. M'KEAN - W hat ia y our hobby '

Mr IISHLR waa not going to ventilate his bobb) at that time,

Mr. M'KEAN -Then eit down.

Mr. 1ISUER thought that it ill became tlio hon member to mike Buch n remark Toe attacks upon (he Minister had come from thosowho, aa previoua Ministers of Railways, ehould have known the difficultés of the position, and been the la"t to make auch temarte. How could any Minister have pre venlcd auch a disaster' Under the moat perfect Byatem in the world an accident might occur, when ono unfortvmtte, min completely lott possession of himaelf He had not the elifchtest doubt that that unfortunate station


Mr M'KEAN rose to a point of order The bon member wos a barrister, and hiB re- marks looked Uko an attempt to advertise hmi»elf

The SPEAKER said that tho bon. member viaa perfectly in order.

Mr IISHER was proceeding to refer to the Hawthorn stationmaBter, when

Mr DirTY rose to a point of order The nnderatanding waa that the circumstances of ihe accident should not be diBcuaaed until after the inquiry,

Mr IlbUEH aaid that ho had no desire to pursue the subject further Iho Uoueo should content itaelf with ex rre«ingitg deep sympathy with the sufferers Ile waa quite prepared to join m any vote which would diaplaco tho Government, but that should be done m a fair manner. It was cot the time to throw obloquy upon the Government, na was attempted over this melancholy disaster

Mr HARPER, while admitting that tlio ¡elate «hould not be continued in a recrimi tatory Epirit, or with the view of anticipating the coroner s inquiry, could not agree that tie country looked to Parliament for Byra lath) \v liut tim pcoplu required waa tha

iteej«tem of management, of which nine teeth" of them disapproved, Bhould not bj continued for a day longer than waa nbao Weir necessary. The Ministr) were not to blame for the accident, but it was directly to le attributed to tho eysttm of management, k1 ich had ciuscd a want of confidence in th department among the people

Mr, BEKIlY -It never exited until the lan year and a half.

Mr HARPER agreed v/ith the hou mem- ber. Intil a certain deplorable event hap pencil in 1S73, nothing waa heard of día crtanieation in the Kulway department, but thtrevaa no question that that department end all tlio other departments of the Btate Eiiliered f'orn that event Tho railways, bow ever had grown bc)ond the capabilities of political management The appointmenla, na a rule, -nero political appointments

He neve- lelt bo degraded as when he waa 0 ked to use his mlluence in the department to secure emplo) ment for persona, and he and other bon members would rejoice ii the E) stem could be altered Moreover, political interference prevented tho mainten- ance of discipline in the department, as the principal of lice r3 had not the same control over their subordinates as they would have if there wns not political management If tho Government would look to their own interests they would aa soon ia possible propose an alteration in the sjstem.

Mr mciIAM considered that the Govern- ment ina to blame for not having proposed to «Ipoint a tribunal to thoroughly inquire into ttiec&uaes of the accident That catastropha, tajialer, or maea icre, or whatever it was called must bo deplored the moro because it might have been prevented. It waa not beyond justice to say that, through the meddling interference of the Minister, an m cer was removed from the Railway depirt ment who waa fitted by largo experience to Cirryouttho work of extending and dupli- cating iho lines Whatever might have been *'i Personal failings and peculiarities, he came out of a searching investigation without warne, and instead of being reinstated ho was «iDBterred to another position, wherohe w13 comparatively n drono If ho had been still enRin°er of construction ho would not "Me allowed the now lino to remain tnti«ed for five or six weeks after ita com pittiou, und he would have repaired the old une concurrently with the construction of the ¡""one If tho accident vvn9 the result of J"? wa"t of proper observance and watch ¡Jineia on the part of the present n iíer' u"'0 Government was inferen "ally to blamo for having made the change Another accident had happened that day at "¡Wield, which Bhowed that there had been faner a fault in tho construction of the points or n want of proper euperviaion. All Inn6 1 Di'8 nomted t0 lue. necessity for a ?»li and seurthing inquiry into our railway management

Mr COW MAN and the Railway depart T'»ja just what that Houao had undo it, tk. ilotÍ""R clse Aa to who was to blame for

im Wchmond accident that matter was sub

ratir' Jhd the Government would havo been 1 iv l.n declining to auaw er any question Ä6n>>Joct- The bon member for Stawel !« the iiailway department in perfect order, '"tit was thrown into disorder by the hon M,e,mb.«for Castlemaine. That hon member \,L \attcrson) when in ofh\o also made 150 »ipointuieiils of young mon from datie- rt,,1 . bolh t0 the Poatftl atld the Railway »fpartments, and thia Beaumont ho (Mr. nZ""v cou,d Provo- Iq h'3 «peech that h»fMBn ° lhat hon> momber had Baid that «i.;. î Uowman) worried the Railway depart HT appomtmontB. The hon. membor, rXn" 1? a man,y maa wonld not have *.î"?ïl!d h,'s (Mr Bowman's) name in thai hi» ?. . ab6e°ce. Before making any such T!mi tone"1 the hon member should have hi«?, a) ,houae ono Sunday evening and n"... ° Bet h,m to 3°ln ln raising the Orange unwin ' n,th the Vlew of ousting the proaent te LTiT.nt' lmt that ho <Mr- Bowman) said

Er,.,Ul8Uo.n- (Hear' hear> Th0 hon »ill 1 h?uld 'ooollect the Sunday evening hrl, when ho entered the garden a pot «R0.0.ra" tt(ter """. and »e jumped up on tr» J. Rnrde° seats and climbed up a chilrfr»n "Bt, one of hla ^Ir Bowman's)

.Oh « Went¿«uning into the houae crying,

(ClR' "'.,p'»«o"on ia np a tree.' hs Jli 1 ' lhe hou member had not even

lUntlhSr'j'888 t0 fHce ° pet ki"'«ar0D Tr!é'h«,ARDINî:R roso t0 a P°int of ordor

fccaliin, ,meraber, ho submitted, was not »d10 *L . 'I18, lueetion ou which the Wirnmcnc of tho Uoueo wis move!.

»ínTn iKAK??R -The hnn member mnat ttii'»geuêu tQ th8 auostlou of raiIw-iy

Mr BOW MAN-Then I will not refer to the Postal department

The SPEAKER -Nor apeak of what took place m the garden (Laughter )

An Hon. Memjeb. -" Over tho garden wall ' (Hênowed laughter )

Mr BOWMAN said that if a return waa compiled of nil the appointments made by the bon, member for Castlemaine it would be found that there wero 10 Castlemaine men appointed for every one belonging to any other part of the colony The non member uleo banded over the management of the railway system to Mr Lladon-a man who carne to the colony as an enginefjtter, and who was a very good tool in the hon mern ber b hands

Mr PATTERSON -They would have done well to keep him in bia position

Mr BOWMAN-And yet the hon member oncocaid tohnn (Mr Bowman), " I will give you two or three appointments Do not poy any attention to Mr elsdon He does very »<U for the public Turther, ho (Mr Bowman) had the appointments for his friends, but he gave m their names in the ordinary way

Mr PAT ILRSON-Truthful Bow man

Mr BOW MAN said his veracity would com pare with that of the hon member for Castle

maine, who would turn tail on hia beat fnendB, and who had sold several political parties in that House-and for what purpose ' 1 or office, and nothing else

Mr M KEAN -Birds in their little neate agree (Laughter )

Mr BOWMAN-The hon member for Castlemaine had an opportunity of either in troducing the Westinghouao brake or of con- tinuing the Woods brake but what did he do' He not only failed to introduce the one but ho Btopped the introduction of the other, and he thereforo had no right to blame the present Miniater for not having adopted a continuous brake Ab to the railway accident, it was to be regretted that the Houbo instead of Bympa thisiiig with the sufferers, had made it a political question Ihe present Minister had doi e moro towards railway reform than any of hiB predecessors bj giving notice that ho dcBired to intioduco a bill for the better management of the Byatem

Mr M'KEAN could scarcely divino the object of the debate All that waa necessary was an explanation as to the accident from the Premier, nfterwhich the matter should be left to the coroner Subsequent!) an official or Parliamentary inquiry could bo held but to appoint a board or select committee at present would interfere with the duties of tho coroner As to the question of the adop lion of a continuous brake it waa ono which Bhould be left to the professional ofhecra of the department and to the responsible Muna ter W ith regard to the Richmond accident, the Minister could not bo held to bo directly or indirectly to blame Railway accidents were common in other countries and especially m America, where there had been a great loas of life but in Victoria only five pasaengera had Buffered death during the whole history of our railway system

Mr LANGRIDGE did not believe that there had been bo much political patronage exercised in the Railway department aa some hon members alleged had been the case In the Government service we had some of tho cleverest men to be found in any part of the world and it waB a mmtake to be continu ally running down our public officers He held however, that the Minister of Railwa)a should confine himself to carrying out the policy of the House, and interfere as little aB possible with the general management of the railways It was not, for instance the Miniater b duty to go looking for sites for rail woy BtationB

Mr BENT-Then why did sou take me round to Alphington ' (Laughter)

Mr LANGRIDGE-There waa a general acromblo then and he deemed it but right that when the Minister was in bis district he should call bia attention to a line which hid been authorised two years ago, but which bad never been completed With regard to the 1 ichmond accident, he held that a select committee should be at once appointed to inquire into ita causes He did not believe in leaving the matter to the city coroner as tbey did in the caso of the Jolimont accident, for it would be Bure to land the country again in an enormous expenditure A eelect committee could inquiro into evory case of injury, and determine the amount of compensation which Bhould be paid An attempt was being made to throw all tho blame in connexion with tho recent accident upon the shoulders of one unfortunate mon There ought rather to be a searching inquiry independent of the Government, b) winch the real cause of the cataBtropho might be

arrived nt

Mr ZOX expreaaed his indignation at the occurrence of im accident which was of a prcv entibio character Under the present system of management, however, such dia aBters were nlmoat inevitable Wo were behiLd the age m railway manago ment Iho raiIwo)B ehould bo under the supervision of men who had obtained plenty of experience m England or elsewhere and if bon members objected to importing Buch officers they ought to adopt the plan o Bending men home to gain experience What waa the use of diBcuaeing questions like the Lond Bill while the bill for the better management of the railways, in which every member of the community waa interested was untouched ' Had it not been for the j»alousy which existed in regard to the Woods and the W CBtinghouse brakes, all tho passenger roll ing Btock on the railways in Victoria would by this time have been fitted with proper brol e power, and Buch accidentB as that of Saturday rendered to a great extent ímpoa


Mr BARR said that for a great number of years the colony enjojed a strange immuuity from railway accidents but ns Boon aa the Government took the Hobsons Bay line in hand everything eeemed to go wrong A eearching inquiry Bhould be held into the accident of Saturday He desired to call the attention of the Miniater of Railways to the long hours and the mo notonoua character of the occupation of stationmasters on small stations This in his opinion, waa a frequent cause of accident, mid was preventiblo by the more frequent changing of officers from one position to another

Mr M'COLL remarked that the speeches of the hon members for Kodno) (Mr Gillies) and Castlemaine (Mr Patterson) Bhowcd an utter want of sympathy with the Minister of Railwa) e in his troubles, and indicated the existence of a BelfiBh desire on the part of those gentlemen for n return to political power Iho one bill more important than any other on tbo notice paper was the Water Conservation Bill (Loud laughter, and cries of " Stick to the railway ) The Miniater of W ater Supply was laughing at the remark, but ho ought rather to weep (Renewed Inughter j He (Mr M Coll) believed that there was a Providence that Bhaped their ends rouph hew them how they might Ha also firmly believed that

" God mnves In a m)fitorlous vvay

11 is wonders to perform

The prnvea of the people m the Northoru plninB had had no effect on the Government tlio railways had been carried too far, and still no attention had been paid to tbo witer question God dealt with nations as auch, and punished them for their sins in this world, while the crimea of individuals were punished in tho world to come Ho firmly bo lieved that the disaster of Saturday might hive been sentwith the object of rousing thoParlia ment to a sense of its duty ni reference to j roviding water m the country districts (Laughter )

Mr L L SMITH wished, before the debate closed, to allude to statements which had appeared m the Age and the ICbiM ne va pnperB to the effect that he waa going to movo that the injured were not entitled to compensation He could not help thinking that the paragraphe had got in inadvertently but at any rate there was not the Bhghtest reason for making the statement, and he thooght it waa rather hard on him that at the present time, and considering his recent bereavement, euch a Btory should bave been punted

Mr NIMMO said he had failed up to the present to see that the slightest practica result was likely to follow tho motion bofor the Chair that the House should adjourn He aleo failed to Bee how the present MiniBter of Hallways had any connexion with the accident The time for Parlia ment to conBider the matter bad not come, and until it had it was unfair to throw out înnuondos There had been three serious accidents in the colony Bince 187G and as regarded the last two he waB at n losa to conçoive how a Railway Board could have prevented them At the same time he considered there ought to be a thorough inquiry made into the working of the Railway department

v air BERRY Baid he did not quito under stand whether it was the intention of the Go vernment lo defer tho inquiry they propoaed till after the termination of the inquest If that were so, there would be too much delay, for Ihe coroner bad already made an adjourn- ment for eight days He also would bo glad to have an assurance from the Government that the inquiry would be outside the Railway department A third point ho wished to mention, was one which seemed to have escaped attention from the Government The Saturday time-table, in regard to the Hawthorn train, he noticed was different from the other days m the week ,

whereas tho train left on the other uoyrj at >

seven minutea past C it was timed to leave at three minutes past 0 on the Saturday


Sir BRYAN O LOGHLEN -That 13 not the official time table

Mr, BERRY-It was in the pnbliBhed time table three minutes past six for the Saturday and it waa due at Hawthorn at 11 minutes past That time must have been present in the mind of the officer who framed the time for the Box hill special Had the Hawthorn train started according to the timo table no accident would bave happened

Mr WALKER -The time table ia wrong There ib no doubt about it

Mr BrRRY suppoged that the time table was correct It waa the starting that was


Sir BRYAN OLOGHLEN said the time tablo which ho held in bia hand waa tho service timo tal lo by which every railway official had to work The tram according to that table waa to leave Melbourne at 7 mmuteB pnat 0 on the Saturday evening lhe time tablo which the bon gentleman had referred to waa undoubtedly published under the authority of the department but a clerical error had crept into it aa to this par ticular train lhe time m the service table n¡ peared also on the large posters

Mr BERRY hoped that this point would not be lost Bight of notwithstanding the explanation It w ould bo important to know w! ich of theBe two t metablea waa before the official wh ) prepared tho Boï hill train time Was it likely ho would bring together the two trains at Hawthorn without an instants separation between tbo two '

Mr GRAVLS-There ia a double line there

Mr Bl \T Baid the matter of the time table had been under the consideration of the

Cnbn et that afternoon but at present he nubtnot Bay anything about it The ques tion when tho official inquiry ahould begin waB also under consideration and the place for holding it lhe Government meant to have ti e (ulleat inquiry so that the blame should fall upon the proper shoulders

Mr Bl RRV. -A good deal of blame has been thrown on one person already

Mr Bl NI -The Government would not be influenced by that ihey intended to givo a fair field and no favour

Mr BLRRY-This man has been gus pended

Mr Bl NT -All of thom would be ans pended and they would have an opportunity to get up their defence

Mr II AN CIS quite agreed with the ex pression oí opinion from both aides of the House that a lamentable accident of this kind should not bo mado the occasion of a political demonstration or a radical change in a departmer t and that to base each a change on it would be something of a legislative mistake i hey must under the circumatances allow the coroner a in íuest to proceed and await its issue Ho thought the Government would eco the necessity of endeavouring so to chango the Bjetcm of managing the rail wajs aB to rei der accidents at least le°a fro ement He would remind the House and the Minister of Railways would bear him out m his statement that had the Ser vice Ministry not been defeated the next measure which it would have dealt with waa one for reforming the railway management so aa to place the rnilv ojs entirely beyond political control

Hie head of the present Government might feel assured of the sympathy of both sides of the Houso m any change in that direction In the remembrance of the calamity which had just occurred there should be nothing more desired by either side of the House

except to deal calmly deliberately and dis

passionately with any proposals which the Government might make to meet the case

Mr KERFERD thought that tho hon member who had just spoken acarcely re

alised the gravamen of the chargea againBt the Government The Uouee would fail to represent the feel ng of the outside public if it did not accentuato the seriousness of ti is matter There waa a very stron" feeling out of doors and the bon mern ber m treating of it aa ho had done did not gauge tho public feeling The Premier ahould feel it to be of the very first moment that there should be the fullest and the earliest in luiry into thia case The IIouse would not bo satisfied until there was such an inquiry

Mr WHEFLrR thought that the hon member who had introduced this quea tion had not behaved fairly to the Government and reminded him that in lia (Mr Gillies) term of office a railway accident occurred which occasioned damage to £10 000 worth of property ( \\ IIon Mt DLK-Ihat waa through Hoods) 11 ebon merni er for Castlemaine (Mr Put

terson) too bad had a great deal to aay yet it-was he who at one time re appointed Mr Tord in biB department contrary to the wishes of the then engineer in chief (Mr H gin bothan ) nn np] ointment which probably ac celerated if it did not cause bia death

Sir BRYAN O LOGnLEN could not under stand the toi e m which the lion member for the Ovens (Mr Kerferd) had lectured the bon member for Warrnambool I waa cfiensne

Mr riiANCIS -I did not seo it

Sir BRYVN OLOGHLrV-The hon member seemed to think that because the

I ubhc mind was agitated therefore somo ira mediate action should be decided upon B it they had to deal with a very aenoua quea

ion and it ahould be considered moat calmly and gravely No doubt there should be a board but there were argumenta for as well as against it He thought that if the House had devoted itself to the ordinary business more real advantage would have accrued What was the result of all this debate' lhe bon member for Rodney initiated it in a moBt ofienaive tone and ti e debate had lasted for six hours And with what result' It ended m nothing more than discussion the undertaking having been already given that the Government would have a full and searching inquiry into the whole cbbc But that inquiry could not con meneo until after the inquest The two could not proceed simultaneously and it would be contrary to the principles of British law to allow any nquiry to interfere with the inqucBt lhe Government would lay all poa sible evidence before tho coroner s jury and the inquest might possibly produce such a result as would rei der further inquiry unnecessary The criminal part of tbecasemuat be disposed of before an independent inquiry was com menced If tbo hon member wob of opinion that tho second inquiry ahould go on aimul taneoualy with the first then he (Sir Bryan O Loghlen) would Btate on the part of the Government that they would on no account consent to such a proceeding lhe Govern ment would submit to no inquiry which would be of the nature of a vote of want of confidence and if the hon member did not accept that decision he could shape hia courseaccordinglj

Mr JAMLS -lhat is a greater lecture than he gave

Mr LAU1 ENS enid that the profits on the Buburbnn lines were reduced last soar to 1 39 per cent on the purchase money m conee quenco of the Jolimont accident As the cost of the late nccident would be considerably more it waa not beyond reason to suppose that this year there would bo no profit at all

After the Jolimont accident caro Bhould hnvo been taken to prevent another disaster no hoped that the fullest inquiry would be made aa soon bb i oseible consistent with surround nig circumstnnces

Mr GARDINPR thought a vote of sjm patby with the sufferers of the accident Bhould hove been pnssed by the House no deprecated an attack upon the Government on the eubject It appeared to bave boen in duced by political considerations alone

The motion for the adjournment waa then

put and tbo Houao divided with the follow

mg result -

Ayea 1 Noes 42

Mojonty againat the motioD 3S



A bill to amend the Statute of Trusta waa received from the Council and on the motion of Mr Kerferd waa read a firBt time


The following popera were laid on the table -Melbourno Harbour Truste ac counts Land Act 1809 regulation and report of the irregularitica in the accounts of the Landa department



Mr C \ OUNO moved for leave to intro duie a bill to amend the Geelong District Vine DiseaBe Act lSbl Bill

After a few remarks from Mr Love


lhe motion waa carried, and tho bill waa read a firBt time


Mr BrNT pursuant to notice, moved for leave to introduce a bill to make provision for the better management of state railways

The motion waa carried, and the bill was rend a fiiBt time

The second reading of the measure waa fixed for December 19


Mr L L SMITH moved for leave to intro doce a bill entitulcd ' The Veterinary Sur* geone Act

Leave was granted, and the bill was real » first time.


The House adjourned at 11 o'clock ni til half past i next (this) day.