1980, 2007, English, Article, Sound, Interview, lecture, talk edition: Anonymous Interviewee (Black Middletown - L148) (Audio Interview and Transcript) Starks, Karen; Anonymous (Black Middletown - L148)

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Anonymous Interviewee (Black Middletown - L148) (Audio Interview and Transcript)
 
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  • 02:38:51, Audio Cassette, Streaming Audio (WMA) , PDF, Hardware: Tascam 322 2-Head Dual Auto Reverse Audio Cassette Recorders, PreSonus FIREBOX 2x6 Fire Wire Recording System , Software: Sony SoundForge 8 Audio Editing/​Mastering Software, File Type: wav , Sample Rate: 44.1 kHz , Bit Depth: 16, Derivatives created: Cleaned wav (Wave X-Noise, Normalize, and ExpressFX Dynamics applied) , Access wma , Black Middletown only: Anonymous wma
  • Sound , Text
Published
  • 1980-07-07
  • 2007-02-26 - 2007-08-27
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  • English

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Title
  • Anonymous Interviewee (Black Middletown - L148) (Audio Interview and Transcript)
Author
  • Starks, Karen
  • Anonymous (Black Middletown - L148)
Published
  • 1980-07-07
  • 2007-02-26 - 2007-08-27
Physical Description
  • 02:38:51, Audio Cassette, Streaming Audio (WMA) , PDF, Hardware: Tascam 322 2-Head Dual Auto Reverse Audio Cassette Recorders, PreSonus FIREBOX 2x6 Fire Wire Recording System , Software: Sony SoundForge 8 Audio Editing/​Mastering Software, File Type: wav , Sample Rate: 44.1 kHz , Bit Depth: 16, Derivatives created: Cleaned wav (Wave X-Noise, Normalize, and ExpressFX Dynamics applied) , Access wma , Black Middletown only: Anonymous wma
  • Sound , Text
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  • Muncie, Indiana
  • Black Middletown Project R 21 Interviewer: Karen Starks Interviewee: Anonymous (Black Middletown - L148) Date of Interview: July 7, 1980 Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: [1:00] Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Well, I was born back in 1897, so I was told. Eighteen--my, my God bless you! [laughs] Now, I figure it out to see how old I am. [laughs] Can't be. This is Karen Starks, date July 7, 1980, at the home of the informant. Okay, and can you tell me how old you are? Well, I was born, they tell me, in--This is 19--18--. You were born in 1918? No, wait. [laughs]. [inaudible] This is 19--isn't it? Ninteen eighty--this year? This century is 19--18--or 1980? This is 1980 now. This year.Unidentified: A hundred and ten? Interviewee: That makes me what?Unidentified: A hundred and ten, Mr.--?1Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: [2:00] Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks:Three. A hundred and three? Lord, have mercy. So, you were born in 1897. Where were you born? Where? Yes, sir. Where were you born? In Greene County Tennessee.Greene County-- In Greenville. Greenville, Tennessee in Greene County. Yeah. Okay. And can you tell me when--do you remember when you came to Muncie? What year you came to Muncie? What year I came to Muncie? In 1931, the fourteenth day of December. Okay. All right, between the time you were living in Tennessee and the time that you came to Muncie, where were you living and what were you doing in terms of working and traveling? Where was I living, and what were I doing? Uh-huh. And what kind of work I was doing?Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: [3:00] Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee:Yes, sir. And who for? I couldn't tell you. [both laugh] Okay. But when I came to the state of Indiana in 1928 to Indianapolis, I lived there in Indianapolis until '31. I came over here, I was a cook. I couldn't tell you who I was working for on that date. Don't ask me. Until the day--until I came over here, it was just here and there for Negroes.2[4:00] Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Were you traveling, seeking work? Huh? Were you traveling, seeking work? Was I--? When you left Tennessee, were you looking for work? Yeah, just to be frank, I left Tennessee so I could get some work and live. Times were hard. Tennessee is the poorest state beside Arkansas in the United States. And Negroes worked where they could, as long as they could. They was kicked out, and they had to make it the best they could.[5:00] There was twelve in our family and mother died in March 28, 1920, and it took all that I could do at that age. My oldest brother, he had left home with his family, and the family was left on me to take care of, see that they had bread to eat, place to sleep, and a house to sleep in. I did the best I could on fifty cents a day. [6:00] I got tired. I just made enough for one week eating, and that was all gone. So I left there in Tennessee on the second Monday of whatever that day was to fall on now--I don't know. I headed somewhere to get some work. Starks: Interviewee: [7:00] Well, I went to Greenville, worked there for P. R. Wilson at a hamburger joint, three weeks--P.R. Wilson. And he paid me four dollars a week. That still wasn't enough to keep up twelve kids and a house. Feeding and clothes were so--I left there to Dent, Virginia-- Starks: Interviewee: Dan, Virginia? Dent. How did you travel? How did you travel when you left Tennessee? See these? [pointing to feet]. That's the way we traveled back then in Tennessee. You either walked, hoboed, to get where you were going.3Starks: [8:00] Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee:Dent.D-e-n-t. Dent, Virginia. --with E. E. Alexander to cook at the Bona Crest Hotel [?], which paid seventyfive dollars a month and paid every two weeks. That made it easier, then, for me to take care of a home and see that the small children had something to eat. And partially enough clothes to wear. Clothes were cheap then, but money was so scarce.[9:00] And food was cheap but that medium exchange always fell in money. Then we went a long good from there. Starks: Interviewee: [10:00] Starks: Excuse me. Do you remember how long you stayed in-- Until--that was in `21. I worked there until October. Now what is this? To find out who I am, and where I've been?Pause in recording Interviewee: [11:00] Then I got kicked out on account of prejudice, evil, of some of the help that didn't want niggers. "We can't have no nigger cooks available for whites." They'd say things like that. "I'd done eat anybody's cooking than an old nigger." Well, they kicked me out--started back to Indianapolis--changed my mind and come back and stayed here. [12:00] I came to Payn'es restaurant to cook. I worked there from the fourteenth day of December until long about the first--the last of October.4It seemed as though I was sent here for a purpose divinely. And when I sit down and thought the matter over, then I turned around and came back, and with a determination to stay. Well, I did stay. I went to New Castle to cook over there. I forget the man's name now--and I came back to New Castle to Muncie worked at the Malleable Foundry about eighteen months. [13:00] And then a friend of mine passed through one day, and asked me if I wanted a better job. I said, "Yeah, does it pay more?" He says, "I think it will." And he says, "Why don't you come out to the mill?" Now, it's interesting to just report who it was, and I went out to the wire mill. Starks: Interviewee: [14:00] To be exact about it--nine years and eight months. Then I was informed of a position that I should get out of the dust awhile. I layed off from there then and staggered around, finally found a another job. And one day I was lost [?]--I met up with a fellow by the name of David Coleman. And he says, "Are you busy Sunday?" [15:00] I says, "No." He says, "Come down to our church." That was the beginning of a church relation in this town. I went down to the church and preached that evening--Sunday evening. And it seemed as though it was divinely planned to work out, that everybody seemed to be very well satisfied. And the next contact I had with him was come back. I went back and then they decided to call me for six months. [16:00] Starks: Interviewee: What church was this? And I said, "Well, this should be indefinitely, because my training that I got for theological work was in Lynchburg, Virginia. And Reverend Johns was my teacher and he says, `Now short periods of relation with churches is not the thing you should do. Had to be indefinitely until the church and you disagree, then you go your own way.'" Wire mill? Indiana Steel and Wire Company. I worked out there for eight years--nine years and eight months. [laughs][17:00]5So I heeded to his teaching. Went on [unintelligible] going back to the church and tells them and they say, "Well we'll try." They tried it and I stayed with them for twenty years. Starks: Interviewee: [18:00] Now, South Penn Street, they rebuilt--organized and built the Mount Zion Baptist church and completed it. So I retired in `60, 1960, and I haven't pastored since. Then my work in Muncie when I came here with the church--churches-- let's say all of them, of orthodox teachings. [19:00] Then we found a very poor, poor condition among the friendship and relation of the churches. Now, we begin working there in '22, and there were only two very well attended churches in the city. [20:00] And that was Bethel A.M.E., Calvary Baptist. And Reverend Jackson was at Bethel and Reverend Thomas at Calvary. And they were the two outstanding churches in the city. Having their own homes--church homes. Nice buildings, but very poor attendance. The attendance was so poor until they only had one service a day--morning service. [21:00] The people were so careless, say, and ignorant to a great extent. They'd come to the church but they wouldn't come in! [laughs] I never saw or heard of a thing like that before. They have service on Sunday evening. All out in front of the church would be full of--I don't know what they call them. Would-bes, hasn'tbeens. [22:00] And they would not come in--no. Sometimes after all of it--some of the people could get by on the street--they just that backward. That was in '32. So, Antioch Baptist Church and Union Baptist Church, they had pastors but they didn't have any members. That don't seem logic, but it is. [23:00] What church was this? What church was this? That was Mount Zion Baptist up here on Main Street.6Go to the church, be nobody there but the pastor and maybe one deacon. They couldn't have Sunday school, they wouldn't come. If they came, they wouldn't come inside the building. More hedonism than anything that I ever seen or heard of before. So, it went on that way. They tried to unite the churches together, so that they could have Sunday school or more of a worship, but that wouldn't work--didn't work. [24:00] So, finally, I went around and visited the churches--talked with the ministers. They were a little apathetic in their relationship towards me. Some said I was crazy [laughs], maybe I was. Some said I didn't know what I was doing and we got our foot on the inside of the door so they couldn't close the door completely and leave me outside. [25:00] Well, finally, one evening, Sunday evening at Mount Zion, there was a car that drove up in front of the building. There were six men in it. And the Lord works in mysterious ways, and there's wonders to perform. And that was the beginning of the unity and relationship of the churches one to another. These men drove up behind me and stopped and said, "Say, mister," said, "We'd like to sing if we can find a place to sing here tonight." [26:00] I said, "Well, you can sing here." And those boys came inside the church, the building, and not trying to explain or to explore how bad it was, [laughs] but, oh, that building was so dirty. Until you got on the inside, you didn't know what was on the outside or not. Had a stove in there burning coal, and you know how soot gathers from coal. [27:00] And that place was scandalously dirty. Those boys sang and said, "We'll be back next Sunday, if you don't care." Now come on, the next Sunday we got the news around that there was going to be some singers. And that broke the ice--all those people gathered in front of the church doors and not coming in. Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Do you remember who the singers were? Huh? Do you remember who they were? The singers were?7[28:00] Interviewee: They called themselves The Four Harmony Kings out of Indianapolis. The Four Harmony Kings, and I give them the credit for opening the doors and breaking the ice and tearing down the partition between the churches. Uh-huh. Do you remember when they came here, approximately what year this was? What year? This was in '33. Now, I want to ask you a few questions about Muncie when you first came here. Where did you live when you came here? Where did I live when I first came here?Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: [29:00]I lived over the place where I worked--Payne's Cafe on Main Street. Slept upstairs over the kitchen, done my clothes at the laundry. And I was about six or eight blocks away from Bethel and Calvary Church. And then after they broke the ice so people come in the churches, and then Reverend Thomas, the pastor of Calvary Baptist Church, come to see me, and he wanted to know where these men were from-- [30:00] Side 1 ends; Side 2 begins Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: [31:00] And I worked until October of '32. Do you remember--did you know anyone here in Muncie when you first came here? Did you know anyone? I didn't know anyone but myself and the good Lord. What did you expect to find in Muncie? How did you-- I didn't know. Why did you come to Muncie? I was sent out of Indianapolis to come to Payne's Cafe, as I worked to cook.8Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: [32:00]Do you remember where the blacks lived then? Huh? Where other blacks lived then? Do you remember where they lived? Where? Where did other blacks live then? Other blocks? Negroes, where did other Negroes live then? I don't want to get into it--it was pathetic. It was bad, bad all over Muncie.Now, I say this, there's nobody around living now that was living then. This was a junction for prostitutes. Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: This area? This town, between Indianapolis and--oh, not Dayton, but the next town. In Indiana? No.Unidentified: Chicago? Interviewee: Starks: [33:00] Interviewee: No. Fort Wayne, no. Toledo! Toledo, Ohio. And all prostitutes assemble in here on Thursday, Friday, and Saturdays because Ball Brothers Glass Company, Indiana Steel and Wire, and Muncie Malleable, and I forget that other foundry's name--payday. You gotta talk louder. Was it a junction between Indianapolis and Chicago?[34:00] And that would draw all of such people here and it was pathetic how they did live. You see, this was a prostitute junction from Madison to Walnut--9Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: [35:00]To Walnut? --Willard to the railroads, was all nothing but brothels. You know what a brothel is? Yes, sir. And the red shacks all down through there.And our people was mixed up with that. I forget what year it was when they tore that down and put up apartments that you might see down through there now. So that dispersed all of that practice in that one section. Then they had to light out to Fort Wayne or Indianapolis or wherever they could go. Starks: [36:00] Interviewee: Starks: Homes? Can you describe the homes, what they looked like, for blacks? Can you describe them in terms of how many rooms, generally, were in the houses, or they had running water or electricity or anything? Well, they were shacks and they were supplied with electric. Coal burners and everything they could get a hold of to keep warm by. They were not mixed, white and black. What were the communties--what were the homes like then?Interviewee:[37:00] The whites stayed on one side of the street, the blacks on the other. And the relation between the two groups was very poor. A nigger was a nigger. So much kind of work that a nigger could do and that was all. Sweep the streets. A nigger couldn't drive a carpet wagon. A nigger couldn't work in a factory and drive a truck of any kind. [38:00] They wouldn't sell a nigger a car, just some old wore out piece of junk that he had to push up hill and ride down hill. A nigger was just nothing but an old slave nigger. The homes in the colored was scattered down around that brothel district.10[39:00] And I couldn't tell you, `cause so many of them I didn't go in--couldn't get in. The way that those people lived was a mystery to me. I'm going to call one or two names. There was Mr. Miller and his wife, and uh--[inaudible] maybe it will come to me. That's been a long time ago. Starks: [40:00] Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: [41:00] There was one little gutter hole behind the Washington Hotel that was run by Reverend Adams. When you could get him out of the bed you could get a cup of coffee, a sandwich, or something like that. Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: [42:00] Starks: Uh-huh. What did colored people do for entertainment then? Did they go to movies or did they go to the white restaurants? You mean then? Uh-huh. What did they do for entertainment? Huh? Was he a policeman or a postman--Mr. Miller? No, he wasn't no police. Let's see, since you mentioned the policemen, they were one or two policemen is all, but I don't recall their names. There were one or two colored policemen then? Yeah. Now, you ask me what you want to know. Okay. Can you tell me anything concerning businesses that blacks owned? Were there any colored businesses? Restaurants or--? No, restaurants, and there wasn't any hotels. Was this the postman, Mr. Miller?11Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: [43:00] Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee:[pause] I don't know. Well, they had the YWCA that would meet there. And they had an old shack down on Madison Street they called a YMCA. Were these for colored--? Wait a minute. Mud holes [?] back behind and the rear was friendly too--and that's about all I know.And these were places that blacks could go to? Black people could--Negro people could go to the YWCA and the YMCA? They went to their own. I see. They didn't--they had a shack up here on Madison Street and Main. And Ball Company had built. up here on Penn Street. a very nice building for the women-- YWCA. And that's all that I--now what else?[44:00] Starks: Do you remember any social clubs from the churches either, or anything like that? You remember any annual holidays or special events that were celebrated in the Negro community then? No, it's [inaudible] books. The Negroes hadn't got to that stage. Did you have a family here in Muncie? Did you ever marry? No, I don't have no family. Didn't then.Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: [45:00] Starks: Interviewee: Starks:Okay. Were there any schools then? Where did Negroes go to school then, when you came to Muncie? They to went mixed schools. They went to schools with white people then? Were these mostly poor white people that Negroes were allowed to go to school with? Were they poor whites? Yes? What would you say are some of the most important things that Negroes, as a group, have done since you were here in Muncie? The most important things?Interviewee:12Starks: [46:00] Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: [47:00] Interviewee:That Negroes, as a group, have done.Well, [pause] in the Negro group, they haven't built no buildings but the little church buildings. I don't know anything. Do you remember any local leaders in the community then? Local leaders in the community then? Uh-huh. Any other ministers, or were there any black--Negro politicians? No?It's sad, but Negroes have a very little to do in uplifting their own group. They would have their little entertainments at these two buildings, the Y and the YW. And then that was very sparsely in between.[48:00] Now the uplifting--the only uplifting thing that I could see was that they did own their property where the church buildings were at. I don't understand how they could get it or did--that was their business before I came here. But they were so backwards. It's pathetic how backwards they were. [inaudible] there'd be no. [49:00] Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: [50:00] Just one--two more questions. Was there ever any violence directed against Negroes when you came to Muncie? Any violence against the Negro? [laughs] There has always been, everywhere. Do you remember any specific incidents? Well, there was one incident that happened in '32 in Marion, Indiana. You've heard of it? Yes, sir. That's the only thing, that close.13Starks:Well, I want to thank you for giving me the information that you have and sharing with me as openly as you have. And I was wondering if you have any old pictures, or any old newspaper clippings or anything that you might have kept from back then. I don't have anything like that. Okay, well I want to--Interviewee: Starks:Session 1 ends; session 2 begins [small child making sounds in background] Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: [51:00] Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: [52:00] Interviewee: I was sent from Indianapolis to Muncie to work with the Payne's Cafe as a cook, experienced steak cook. Okay. And do you remember your birthday? The twelfth day of January, `97. Eighteen ninety-seven. So, you are now eighty-three years old? You're eightythree years old. How did you travel to Muncie? You mean in the carriage? Uh-huh. On a train. And did you bring any things with you when you came? Not anything but myself. Okay, why did you come to Muncie? Tell me again how long you've lived in Muncie. Since--in Muncie--since the fourteenth day of November, 1931. Nineteen thirty-one. And where were you born? Greenville, Tennessee.14Starks: Interviewee: [53:00]So, you had worked, cooking, for quite a while then? Do you feel that you were ever held back on your job because of your race? Yep, lots of places I was turned out just because I was colored.So many objectives and so many of the Caucasians objected to eating a nigger's cooking. [laughs] Starks: Interviewee: And they had them in their homes? You know, that was funny. You wouldn't have thought that--of that so much, if you were some--let's see--some places in the South--in the Tennessee's hotels, restaurants would appreciate a good black man's cooking.[54:00] Other places they didn't want you in the kitchen for nothing but dishwashers. Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: [55:00] Interviewee: And it's pretty much the same today in spots and places. I remember here not too long ago I was working at Robert's Hotel. They hired an Italian cook from Rome to come over here to teach us how to cook. And the style of cooking that he taught didn't take a hold. Were there any other blacks employed where you were working? At Payne's, were there any other blacks working there? No. Okay, on your job did you get exactly the same work that a white person did, and get the same pay? Well, I did the same and more work than the white men that worked there on less pay. Was this generally the rule then? That--was this generally what happened then? Back then? Yes, sir.[56:00]15I'm trying to remember the chicken cacciatore. And that was his outstanding dish. He told the boss that he could fix the dish and he would guarantee that everybody that ate it would like it. And cacciatore chicken, the way he fixed it, a pig would like it. [Starks laughs] I never liked no squash in any kind of a vegetable unpeeled. [57:00] Always liked the celery cut fine. Not [inaudible] but I liked it chopped so you can get it in your mouth without holding one end in your hand. [both laugh] Well, he paid that man. He would never tell me what he paid him. But he worked there for about three weeks. His chicken cacciatore--it didn't go over. [58:00] And his roast lamb did very well, but the sauce--the bitter sauce--and he had to ditch all of that. Called on me then to fill in. I said, "What's wrong?" "They ain't satisfied with his cooking." That was a false remark. "Then are you going to pay me the same salary?" "Oh, no you're not as good a cook as he is." I said, "Other cooks going to cooking school and all, but the people are eating steak." [59:00] "I know, but you're not a good cook as he was," That's an excuse to keep from paying me the salary they paid him. And that was the end of that, until I went on back and went to work for the same price, thirty-two dollars a week. And I don't know what they was paying him. So, one morning he came out with--he and some of them had got into it. Ge was telling them--he said, "I want you to know now, [interviewee] is the best cook you've got on the place." And, you see, the trouble with these old--who's going to read this? [1:00:00] Starks: Interviewee: Starks: It will just be persons affiliated with this project. Well, now about that-- You want me to turn it off? I can do that.Pause in recording Starks: You were saying that--Were there many foreigners that came in at that time and competed with blacks for jobs?16Interviewee: Starks: [1:01:00] Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee:Well, there wasn't any more foreigners, no. These that were coming still come, but they was complaintiffs [?]. They didn't like his style and they just told all. Did you get any training on your job that helped you to be promoted? Could you get trained?I didn't get any training from any of them. I had to train them. Yes, sir. [laughs] What could you do if you wanted to get more money or to move up on the job? Huh? What could you do if you wanted to get more money or to move up on the job? Not anything. It seemed as though they have a standard set for the black cooks and one for the white. But if you were working on a job and they put a white man on there you'd have to train him. Teach him everything you knew, they wouldn't pay you any more.[1:02:00] The last place that I worked--and he said that he made a mistake when he said, "We want to learn all we can off of you and give it to this man here," white fella, "'Cause he's got the brains and he knows how to do." Well, that was wrong because I immediately contracted from what he said, that he wanted me teach this man all that I could and they didn't write it down, so as soon as he got to where he thought he could handle it, I was gone. [1:03:00] Well, it didn't work out just like he wanted it because I had taught too many of them. And every day or two they'd be coming running to me, "What's your recipe for this?" I said, "Well, I can't tell you." Starks: Interviewee: [1:04:00] I was out to make a living, but I wasn't about no free gratis teach it to them. How long did you work there? I worked there about six weeks [laughs] and I charged them twenty dollars a day. "You're awful high. You want to go to the bank regular, don't you?"17Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: [1:05:00] Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: [1:06:00] Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee:This wasn't at Payne's, was it? Were you still working at Payne's? No. Where was this? That was a new place that had opened out here on Madison right--joining that-- What was that, oh, on the head of Madison there? On the head of Madison? That place where the lodging stays at?The Travelodge? Yeah. And that was the conclusion of that. You didn't go to school here. Do you remember anything about the schools though? School here? Do you remember anything about the school system in Muncie when you came here? Well, no. It's just about normal as--maybe a little better today than it was then, but I couldn't tell you. What would you say is the highest level of education for most blacks then in Muncie?Well, the highest level is--I think I know a few that graduated from Ball State and uh-- Had most of them finished high school here in Muncie? Well, since the last five or six years they have. But when you came most blacks hadn't finished high school? Well, up until about five or six years ago, no.18Starks: Interviewee: [1:07:00] Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee:Do you feel that black children were encouraged to go to school? No.Did any people discourage them? Discourage them? That I wouldn't say because there was so much of that done behind the doors--not open. Which blacks were most likely to go on to college? Were they children of laborers or children of businessmen or--? Well, now, children of laborers that's all there was, not but very few businessmen in the city when I came. There were two undertakers. John Patterson and Prunes and Taylor [?].[1:08:00] Starks: Interviewee: Starks: [1:09:00] Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: [laughs] I don't know. Don't remember any of them who went away to schools-- So most of them-- --to college. I don't know of any. Where would they go to college then? What went to colleges--what few that did--went out here to Ball State. How did black children get to school? Walked or rode the trolley. Okay, and generally how far away was the school? Prunes and Taylor [?]. Were these black men? Yeah, they were black. And then there was one fella by the name of Ralph Pettiford. He was a carpet cleaner--rug cleaner--whatever you want to call it. So, not--did many go on--did many of the graduates who went off to school--to college, did they come back to Muncie?19Interviewee: Starks: [1:10:00] Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: [1:11:00]Well, generally--as the distance then--the same distance now. Okay.The schools haven't moved any farther away, but the blacks have been scattered out in different districts until--I shouldn't say just exact what the distance are. Did any of your children--did you have any children who attended school here? Well, I have two daughters. Are they living in Muncie? Yeah. One of them died last year, in Texas, by the death of cancer.Other one lives in Muncie here. She now works at the Warner Gear. Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: [1:12:00] Interviewee: Starks: College? No. Okay. Uh-huh. Can you give me her name? Her name? Ernestine. Okay, has she lived in Muncie all of her life? Yeah. How old is she? Oh, thirty-some--I don't have the facts. Okay. So they went to school here--your daughters went to school here? Yeah. Okay, did any of your children--did any of your daughters attend college? Did they go to college?20Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee:Money was too low. Do you think there were many black children that wanted to go on to school, but couldn't because of limited finances? Well, I wouldn't make a statement to that because I don't know how much money out of my wallet in there--and the work was kindly hard to get and the lay-off was hard on the blacks.[1:13:00] Many go to work today, work all day, and go out the next morning and you wouldn't have no job. "Why?" "We don't need you." How long, nothing, no explanation made and that concerns me. Just why [inaudible] that's all. Starks: Interviewee: [1:14:00] Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: [1:15:00] Interviewee: No, I don't remember anything like that. What was the last one, what was the one you just said? The last name you just said? Yeah? What was it? Boiler. Boiler. Yeah. Boiler workers. Okay, I didn't understand you. And others quite a bit of a housecleaning--that was the wives--and anything else. Can you think of any black families where the entire family worked for one family over the years? What kind of jobs were most blacks holding then? Well, the Ball Brothers, Malleable, Indiana Steel and Wire, and the boiler works.21Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: [1:16:00] Starks: Interviewee:Did you or any other black workers have black bosses? Black bosses? Yes, sir. Not then. Did you or black workers prefer black bosses or white bosses? Well, now you want the fact? Yes, sir. The black bosses were few and far between. And the black man that bossed the black man, he was bossed by a white man. He was--what do you call them?The foreman? Uh, maybe it will come to me. But he had to report to his boss that he was going to change, and whether he could change or not. He made all the decisions to the white man who too high on his job. He didn't want no black man on his job, he wanted all white. The black boss wanted all white? Yeah. I remember going out to a place, Ball Factory.Starks: Interviewee: [1:17:00]There was a friend of mine, he was looking for a job and he says, "Let's stop here." He went in, this black man was the boss, and I noticed that there was a separation line there. The white boss was over there and the black boss was over here. And the black boss, he faced a line of men that were seeking work on the right and the white man was facing `em on the left. [1:18:00] And he'd look at the line, and just nod his head as he went by down the line accepting and rejecting. And he got down to the colored--was mostly all colored anyway. Why, I noticed this black man--a nigger, I'll call him, `cause he acted like an old nigger--would shake his head, "No, not that one." Get down to a white man, "Yes." And that was the way that went on, you know? [1:19:00]22And maybe I can think of that man's name that was the boss. But anyhow it went on and on and on and on, and every time there'd be a job open for a black man it would be the hardest, hardest, brutal work that they could find to put on this black man. Finally this boy got this job. You never was in the glass plant, were you? Starks: [1:20:00] Interviewee: It's about--I'm just saying that, off-handed, about twenty-four and thirty-six feet bowl shaped bottom. And this was laid with firebrick all around-- No, sir.Session 2, side 1 ends; side 2 begins [1:21:00] Interviewee: --into this hot lava of glass. Out of this bowl--send this men down in that hot bowl--I'd say the temperature was around--operation over fifteen hundred degrees. They did that tonight, run these men in there tomorrow night. You know, it didn't take them long, I mean it wasn't very cool. They didn't live long. Go down there and work worked in thirty-four, six and eight--oh, they died like anything.[1:22:00] They would send them poor men in there. They needed work, and they'd come out at night. Maybe they'd be able to go back the next day or two. And the next few days they was dead. It was pitiful how they treated them. Oh, Lord I wonder. The men had to do something to live, and many of `em bootlegged, [inaudible], stole. [1:23:00] Anyway, to make a living, to get something to eat, and then that was awfully poor. Arthur Logan, a chicken shack runner-- Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Arthur Logan, was he black? Yeah. He and his wife, Maggie Logan, Arthur, Tish Patty, and his wife. Tish Patty? Patty. P-a-t-t-y?23Interviewee: [1:24:00]Yeah. Uh--they run bootlegging joints and sold chicken. [laughs]That way--that put the man on the stealing line--chicken thefts. Old Slick--they wanted chickens they'd see Slick. And he'd bring in a load of chickens from the country and at night, like this morning, and scatter them out today and then they'd have a chicken killing at nights. [both laugh] [1:25:00] Starks: Interviewee: Do you remember where this place was, what street it was on? This was on 7th Street East. And the thirteenth block out of--that was in the thirteenth block, East 7th Street. And Patty was back up on 7th Street about 9th or 10th--somewheres along in there. Uh-huh. And they used to sell chicken and bootleg? Hm? And they used to sell chicken and bootleg?Starks: Interviewee: Starks: [1:26:00] Interviewee:Yeah. Bootleg, sell chickens, gamble--everything they can do, keep the money coming in. Well, they did good for a while--you know, everything does good in hard times. There was--oh, can't think of that boy's name. He was a chief bootlegger. [both laugh] He keep them supplied in whiskey, and old Slick would keep the chicken on the table. You can't remember this chief bootlegger?Starks: [1:27:00] Interviewee: Stark: Interviewee:Chief bootlegger? What was his name? Oh, I know it well, but it just don't come to me right now. Okay. He supplied the whiskey. He hauled it in and out there was a--what'd ya call it? They couldn't bring it in, but you could slip it in, and that's what he did. I know that man well, but I just can't remember his name.[1:28:00]24Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: [1:29:00] Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: [1:30:00]Do you remember where he lived or where his store was? I know where his deals was, made his deals on 5th Street, 5th and Blaine. Okay, I'm going to ask you just a few more questions. Do you remember any black doctors or dentists or nurses or midwives when you came to Muncie? Yeah, we had Dr. Davis. Doctor--Was Dr. Brooks here then? Brooks? Uh-huh. Was he here then? What about nurses? Did you have any black nurses? Not that I know. What about midwives? That I couldn't say. Did you use them? Did you go to Dr. Davis? Dr. Brooks? [no verbal response] Why not? I didn't have any cause to go. Did most black people go to these doctors? Not the most of them, no. Why didn't they go? I couldn't say. Dr. Smith, he came in. Dr. Smith. Very good doctor, and he did wonderfully well after a while.25And you know, there's so much evil among our people against one another's success. There was a woman got mad with the Dr. Smith and she got on the telephone, you know, and she called everybody that she knew about going to the doctor and told them that he was leaving town and he didn't want no more visitors. [1:31:00] And so, one day I met Dr. Smith and he said, "You know, there's just about [inaudible]." Now who's going to read this? Starks: Excuse me? The project that we're working on--there will be persons who will be screening this that are working with me on this project. Do you want the tape off now? Is that what you're saying? Well, I don't want to impersonate anyone. No sir, we won't. It won't be used for those purposes. And they--well, he says, "There's just about [inaudible] and I'm going to have to leave town."Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: [1:32:00]And I said, "Oh, Dr. Smith, who done it?" He wouldn't give no names. He said, "We doctors are not supposed to do such." Later on, I eventually found out, and he said, "I haven't got enough money to go anywhere." You know, there's awful evil in the colored people. Starks: [1:33:00] Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Huh? What were the major causes of death for most black people then? Pneumonia, and drunkenness--alcoholism, let's say. And that alcohol was one of the greatest among all of them. Black and white? [no verbal response] Were there any epidemics? Were there any major epidemics here in Muncie? What were the major causes of death for most black people then?26Interviewee: [1:34:00]No, there was when I arrived here, there was a little epidemic of paranetic [?].Several children was paralyzed. That's the only epidemics that I can recall. Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: [1:35:00] It was Italian market, [laughs]--this is natural for blacks, they're gonna steal. [both laugh] Well, you see they was forced into it, some of them from farms and some from the assessor. On Friday and Saturday nights they'd crowd this market out. [1:36:00] And while they'd be up there pretending they was waiting to get paid on they'd have some of their friends with a car and they'd just be packing that car with these. [both laugh] Oh, it tickled me one had [laughs] sack of flour and he didn't know it had a hole in it and that flour marked from the place you picked it up clear on down around [phone rings] to his car. He hadn't paid for it. Well-- Starks: [1:37:00] Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: How many rooms in one home? In your home, when you first came to Muncie? Well, I told you when I first came to Muncie I stayed where I worked. Right, right. In the early days how many rooms were there in your home? How many people lived there? What kinds of food did you eat when you were coming up in Muncie? Food? Uh-huh. Oh, pretty much [?] the same. Did you grow your own food? Did you hunt for food? How did you get it? Well, they had gardens around backyards. They had a market down here on South Walnut Street. [laughs]27Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: [1:38:00]Only one room, probably two or three, and I'd cook for myself. How many rooms did most black houses have? Oh, from one to three or four. And how many people would live there? That I wouldn't say, because you never know when night came.They would run night and day and--yeah, I couldn't say that. Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: [1:39:00] Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Did you go to them? No. Did whites go to them? Yes, they went to them, but I never did go and-- Where were blacks hospitalized? Where were blacks hospitalized? Blacks? Where did they go to the hospital? Could they go to the hospital? You said that blacks used alcohol. Did they use drugs then? Drugs? That I wouldn't say. Okay. Were there any conjurors or healers in the black community then? Were there what? Conjurors or faith-healers in the black community then? About as much as there are today. Uh-huh. Do you remember any of them? Oh, I don't remember exactly.28Interviewee: [1:40:00]Well, them that lived long enough to get that--[laughs] It was nothing to laugh about but it was funny.Now they would drink this alcohol--and what they ate I don't know, where they ate I don't know. First thing you know, he would be out to the hospital. Next thing you know he was dead. Some of them [inaudible] got to the hospital and died on the way there. And some of them would come home, set down, go to sleep, never get up. [1:41:00] I know several of them that did that. And that's what I want to bring in about this time. Ball Brothers--tank men. They made gas out of artificial and material that they put in there was poison and that killed the most of them, working on the gas line. Starks: Interviewee: [1:42:00] Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: When they died, they were all in their twenties? When they died they were in their twenties? I mean, when they went into the factory. Now, when they died I couldn't tell you. Would you say they died much younger than they would have had they'd had good jobs? Yeah. Do you remember any all black hospitals or rest homes or nursing homes or homes for the mentally ill when you were coming up? You mean, here, in this city? Here in Muncie. No, there was nothing like that. What age did most of these people live to be, that worked in with the gas or in the glass melting pot? Well, see I couldn't say because I don't know what age it was when they'd get in there. They were all up in their twenties.29Starks: [1:43:00] Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: [1:44:00] Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: [1:45:00] Interviewee:In the old days, how did people feel about the physically handicapped?How did the people feel? Uh-huh. Well, from what I could see, they didn't have no feelings. Do you remember any people who were in a wheelchair, or who were blind or deaf or paralyzed? Well, I can remember some that were blind and paralyzed, yeah. How were they cared for? By their parents and friends, and when they got older they had to get along the best they could.Who were the black leaders in the nation at the time that you came to Muncie? Who were the black leaders of the nation? Uh-huh. Have you ever heard persons like Marcus Garvey or W.E.B. DuBois? Yeah, Marcus Garvey. And what was that other name? DuBois.They was supposed to be the black leader, but now, to be frank about the matter, from then on up until now, the black leaders of the Negroes are few and far between. `Cause Negroes won't be lead by no one black man. All that [traffic noise; inaudible] Georgia, before they let a black man tell them anything. I know we had some trouble here, oh, way back in the thirties, and all met up here on Willard Street. Who met?Starks: [1:46:00]30Interviewee:All the Negroes that wanted to go. Few of the whites and one old Negro got up by the name of Findley. "We're not going to be led by no Southern black man!" He was one of these dark kind of guys, raised up here in Ohio.[1:47:00] And they refused to be led by a black man. And as they got to arguing over, the white man who was trying to get them organized, he walked out. Couldn't blame him. Starks: Interviewee: [1:48:00] And some among `em, I don't know who it started from, suggested me. And that's where it broke out, broke out and tore up and never was called together again. And why, I don't understand. If you know more than I do I'd like to hear from you. Starks: Interviewee: [1:49:00] They can't lead theirselves because they have never been led, but they don't want you to tell them what to do. That's one of the aggravatingest part of our success, is we will not be lead. And as I used to say so many times, you can't lead where you don't go, and you cannot teach that you don't know. [1:50:00] So, I remember we had--I remember going to church once at the place. Time to preach--the preacher wasn't there. And he wasn't there in Sunday school and he didn't get in the church in time to preach. So, he come in looking all goose-eyed, and from his mouth, asked me to say something. There wasn't that much to say, the pastor's not here. [1:51:00] "Oh, yes he's just come in," and the pastor come in--never go to Sunday school. Never come to church until it was time to turn out. I said, "Well, I'm going to tell the pastor that he can't lead where he don't go. No, sir. But they don't want it. They didn't want it, and they don't want it now. What was he trying to organize them to do? He was trying to organize some kind of a organization that would help the blacks and the whites to establish a definite place for a public recreation for the blacks.31Starks: Interviewee:Yes, sir. And he cannot teach that he don't know. You've got to know your Sunday school and you've got to go to it to be taught by it." He didn't like it so well, but I said it when it was all over with.Tape 1 ends; tape 2 begins [1:52:00] Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: This is the second tape. What holidays were observed in the black community when you came here? Where? What holidays did you observe? Same as [inaudible]. Were there any special events that were just held in the black community that you remember? No. Were there many family reunions? Were there many family reunions? Family reunions? Were there many when you came? No. How were your children's names chosen? How were your children's names chosen? Churches? Children. How were your children's names chosen? Children's main program? Names, their names. How were there names?32[1:53:00] Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: [1:54:00] Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Well, when I came in [laughs] they had the church doors were open every Sunday and Wednesday. Now that attendance--very few, only two [?]. About how many members were in the church at the time that you came? Oh, now that's just a guess. I don't know. There was such a few until--they didn't have no Sunday school service once a day. Now, Sunday school it was awfully poor. Right. What do you mean? [inaudible] How did you choose their names? Oh, you'd have to ask somebody else. I don't know. [laughs] Okay, all right. When you came to Muncie, did you and your family attend church? Well, it was only me. I came here, yes. And what church did you attend when you came? When I came, I attended Calvary Baptist. And how frequently did the church have service? How frequently did the church have service? How frequently? Uh-huh.[1:55:00] I couldn't say that about the membership though. Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Okay. When did you start? When did you go into the ministry? I started in the ministry in 1914. You were a minister when you came here?33Interviewee: [1:56:00]Yeah, in Greenville, Tennessee, at the United Presbyterian Church called New Hope. Under the pastorage of Rev. J. H. Hort [?].And there we attended regularly as long as I was there, and then we went to--I went out from there to different points to work and then I got entangled with the Baptist church. Some places there was Methodists, no Baptists, and other places there was Baptists and no Methodists. And that made you then be one or the other, or just attend one because it was convenient and [inaudible] could walk home. [1:57:00] Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: [1:58:00] [both laugh] `Cause they--as I fore-stated, they are very few in the church and very few that had any activities in the church. When I went to this little church, there was six members there. Sunday morning they raised sixty cents. It was on the tray. So, which church did you pastor here in Muncie? Mount Zion. Okay, were you pastoring there when you came to Muncie? Pastoring? What year did you go to Mount Zion? What year did I go to Mount Zion? Uh-huh, as pastor. I organized it and built it. What year was this? That was in '38 on up through '40. Pastored it until '61 or `2. Can you tell me some of the things your church did for the community then? No, I can tell you more about what the community did for the church.34[1:59:00] The deacon [inaudible, name?] was the treasurer there. And I thought, strange they took the money and give it to him. And I wasn't taught that way, and when evening service comes, that's when [inaudible]. I took it out and spend it all because [inaudible]. Now what? Starks: [2:00:00] Was there any violence against blacks in the community when you came to Muncie? Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: [2:01:00] Starks: Interviewee: Yes, sir. This city was infested very badly with them. Indianapolis was worse still, and a Negro could run some of them like rabbits with a hound after them in the Ku Klux Klan. How did most black people feel about the police? How did black people feel about the police? The police? Uh-huh, how did they feel about them? Well now, that's a good question. But I tell you, the most the people feel about the police--the police make the Negroes what they are against them by their ignorance. Violence against the blacks? Not any real violence outwardly anytime since I've been here. Well what were the major fears of black people when you came? What were the major fears of blacks in Muncie? Fears? Ku Klux Klans. They were afraid of the Ku Klux Klans. You know what that is? [laughs] Okay. Was there any violence against blacks in the community when you came to Muncie?Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee:[2:02:00]35I say this because it is ignorance for a man to know better and have a position that they have and never do it. Our policemen is one of the most hated things--people, groups. They are among the blacks, because every time you see two policemen together and one black man their idea seems to be, the first thing, knock them in the head. [2:03:00] And they have beat up [pause]--well, that's been a long time ago. Starks: Interviewee: [2:04:00] I could pick them up early yesterday evening, and you'd go down there and see them this morning, you wouldn't know them they'd beat `em up like that. Knock their teeth out, getting their hands up. You see a nigger coming out the next morning, he's you'd say he's been in a train wreck. Now that's the nature of a policeman--at least it used to be here and everywhere else. Starks: [2:05:00] Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: [2:06:00] Starks: Interviewee: What were the major illegal activities in the black community? Major? Well, there was--uh, yeah, Miller. What was his name? I can't think of that boy's name. Do you know where they were assigned to work? Where the black policemen were assigned to work? I don't remember--no. I don't know where they were assigned to work, but the most of them, you see them on South Walnut Street. Do you know why they walked South Walnut Street, why that section? Well, I don't know exactly why, but that's getting them out of town. [laughs] And they wouldn't be seen as much. Did you know any black policemen? Did you have incidents here where policemen beat black men here? Yes, they do have and they would take these black women and the men to the jailhouse.36Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: [2:07:00] Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: [2:08:00]Illegal activities, in the black community. Bootlegging. You told me that, okay. Now, did black people have pride in themselves in the old days? Did black people have pride in themselves in the old days? Did black people--? Did they have pride in themselves in the old days? Pride? Um-hm. Well, let's say [inaudible]. I can't say, `cause as I have said, they say one thing and do another.How did they feel about being colored or Negro? Being colored? How did they feel about it? How do I feel about it? Okay, how do you feel about it, and how did most blacks feel about it? Well, some like it and some don't. [laughs] Some blacks, you call them black they're ready to fight, and some you call colored they're the same. How do you feel about being called black today? Well, personally, I don't think much about it. Now they say, "How come they call blacks and colored?"There ain't no explanation there for why. You can't explain anything on either side. So, I don't know much about that one. Starks: How do you feel about being called an Afro-American?37Interviewee: [2:09:00]That's all right. Afro-American, we are just that. Because we came from Africa and old John Smith brought us over here.Liverpool into Virginia and there he dumped off about forty or fifty, and the Indians and the cold weather killed them all. It took about six or nine months [unintelligible]. They starved to death, froze to death and the Indians killed them. Starks: Have you ever heard of any of these newspapers such as The Afro American and The Black Star Press, the Chicago Defender? Have you ever heard of any black newspaper?[2:10:00] Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: [2:11:00] That's the only paper published by the blacks that I liked. I come to Indianapolis they were plentiful there. `Cause it seemed like that paper give you more sensible news than any other paper that put out by the blacks. The others were sickening to me, might have been all right to somebody else. Starks: [2:12:00] In the old days did people talk about Africa? Well, yes. Do you remember any that were circulation here in Muncie then? No. Could you get a copy of any black newspapers if you wanted one? No. Okay. Were you able to read any black newspapers? Did you read any black newspapers when you came to Muncie? Well, I didn't read any here, but I have. Mostly interested in that--what was that big paper out of Chicago? The Chicago Defender. Yeah, I liked it, and I'd carry it around with me where ever I went, if I could get a hold of one or have one shipped to me--mailed to you.38Interviewee:Oh, yeah. They talked about Africa. Some wanted to go back, [laughs] some didn't. Oh, they---some kind of old jig song. If the white folks wants the colored folks to go to Africa, I'm not going. [laughs] One old nigger's name, you called his name here a while ago, trying to get all the blacks to go to Africa. Marcus Garvey?Starks: [2:13:00] Interviewee:Yeah. Well, now that was--I don't know how to state that. Marcus Garvey, and he wanted all the niggers to go back to Africa and that's where that old jig song comes up. If the white folks want the niggers to go to Africa, I aint going. That's the only thing that I know about that. Do you feel Negroes were ashamed or angry about Africa? Well, they was not ashamed and they was not angry, but some of them longed to go back home.Starks: Interviewee: [2:14:00]Now that's back before my time. I'm going to stretch out a little bit. That was them that lived long enough to remember it. Never was that many children that were reared in any country that never longed to go home sometimes. I don't know where you were reared, but if you were reared in Texas, stayed up here ten years on up till now, there was a time somewhere that you longed to go back home. [2:15:00] Starks: Interviewee: Did you ever think of Africa as a homeland? Have I ever thought of it being a homeland? My relation through reading about Africa, and as I was telling the Lord a while ago concerning Ham and Japheth, I thought sometime I'd like to go. Just to see, is it true what they say about it?[2:16:00] That's what I wanted to see. Now they take King Solomon and Addis Ababa down in that section in there, I used to read quite bit about it and I longed to see just how the people live. It was more my sympathetic feeling for the people than it was that--want to go home to stay. I wanted to go home to see just how my people were treated. [2:17:00]39I looked around again, I say--Well, momma, my father, they knew nothing about it, but my ancestors related back in there, they knew. So one day I sit down and, you know, I wrote--[laughs] Starks: Interviewee: Starks: [2:18:00] Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Have your tree traced down? Tree? Tree, family tree? Oh, yes sir. Uh-huh. And I wrote to England to find out just how things were, or if it were true-- concerning. And about two or three years--I think cost me five dollars--and they said, "Well, we are trying to find out your family connection to King Solomon." What did you write? I'm too ignorant to find out--you know this old tree business? You ever see that? What?[2:19:00] Solomon's been dead so long, and they couldn't find nothing. Said, "Well, we just say your name originated by a coats of arms from England." That's all there was [inaudible]. Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Do you think black people have pride today? Do you think black people have pride today? Pride? Uh-huh. Do you think they have pride today? Yeah they have pride, and some of them have too much pride. [laughs] Well is it better than in the old days? Well, yes, it is better than it was in the old days. How? How? How is it better?40[2:20:00] Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: The pride? Uh-huh. Well, they're more determined to be as they think they should be. They will stand up and talk. That's one thing that I do like about `em. I like for you to stand up and speak. Not to drop your head and cry. That makes me worried when I see-- don't see it as much now as you did then.[2:21:00] A white man talking to a black man and him sitting there--standing up there cryin'. I could take a brick and knock some tears out of him. [both laugh] And that pride is more determined today than it was back then. And I'd like to add this--In the army, see, these colored boys go into the--before a captain, or lieutenant, he hits the door [?], takes his hat off, starts scratching his head. [2:22:00] He's scratching his head [laughs]-- Tape 2, side 1 ends; side 2 begins Interviewee: Scratching his head and rubbing his hips. I guess he's getting ready to run. And then crying--I don't know [inaudible] before. Somebody walk up to you, bawl you out, then you start crying. What do you get out of it? You ever do that?[2:23:00] Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: No, sir. [laughs] Try not to, anyways. Huh? Try not to. Do you do a little bite of crying when your husband bawls you out? I'm not married. [laughs] Oh, [laughs] I don't mind you crying when your momma talks to you. That I might do! [both laugh] You're liable to get a whipping too.41Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: [2:24:00]Do you think that young people were ashamed of their race or color? Some are, some are not. Do you think this is so today? Huh? Do you think this is so today? Oh, it's just about as equal today as it was back in the olden days.But they're a little bolder today than they used to be. Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: [2:25:00] And you just can't hardly explain that because--I don't know. They're white too much they get up on another. As I said a little while ago, your family is the hardest bunch of people to get along with. It's your own family. See, your wife today, if she's black, she's evil. [2:26:00] You see her tomorrow, she's yellow, she's evil. There you are. I'm trying my best so long in my career to find a junction between [phone rings] the most [unintelligible] place anywhere. Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Were the fair-skinned blacks usually better off or worse off than other blacks? Huh? Were fair-skinned blacks any worse off or better off than other blacks? In the past, how did most people feel about fair-skinned blacks? How did most people feel about--? Fair-skinned blacks. Fair-skinned and black. Well, now that's--now that's a choking question. Some blacks don't like fair-skinned and some black don't like theirselves.42Interviewee: [2:27:00] Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: [2:28:00]No, now that calls for something else. To answer that I'll have to say that blacks in certain sections of the South are better off than the fair-skinned.What about here in Muncie? I don't know the difference. Were they able to get better homes or better jobs? No, no. Do you think this is so today? Think they should associate? No, do you think this is so today? Do you think fair-skinned blacks are able to get any better jobs or better homes? No, not here. Okay. Did you ever see any black actors or singers or entertainers here in Muncie? Did I ever see any black singers? Oh, yeah we got carloads of black singers.Quartets, choirs, and from one degree up to the highest or lowest. Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Did you ever see any black actors or entertainers here in Muncie? Well, not raised here in Muncie, saw them come in and out. Do you remember their names? Their names? Uh-huh. Oh--singers or entertainers of any kind? Uh-huh. Oh, I can't think of their names right now.43[2:29:00] Starks: Interviewee: Okay, how do you think most white people feel about black people today? How do I think how the most white people feel? Well, it's hard to answer that question because that's an inward feeling that is not exposed to the public often. You may remember when a bunch of whites like--more so when the hotels were going on--they'd slip around you behind doors or in rooms.[2:30:00] There they would make their expression of blacks. And I worked at a hotel and I heard some laughin' going on. And I slipped up to that post enough so I could hear, and there were four whites setting in there talking about Mrs. Roosevelt. Do you know her? Starks: Interviewee: Starks: Interviewee: Starks: [2:31:00] Interviewee: Yeah, and then this one fella says, "Every time [inaudible] comes down to Georgia," he says, "The niggers throws the old piano up in the raggedy truck and down the streets he goes and rolls, dusty, whooping and hollering, singing, dancing, entertaining the president." They were just laughing and killing themselves. One says, "Well, I'll tell you," says, "My dad says he was a halfnigger anyhow." [laughs] Says-- Uh-huh. And they was from Georgia. You talking about the president's wife? Huh? When you said Mrs. Roosevelt, the president's wife?Pause in recording Starks: [2:32:00] Interviewee: In my accomplishments? Well, it didn't look like I accomplished very much for a while. But since the Social Security law come out--you're not on it are you? How do you feel about yourself and your life and what you have been able to accomplish here in Muncie?44Starks: Interviewee: [2:33:00] Starks: Interviewee:No, sir. [laughs] Oh, I had an occasion, calling no names, to have a communication with one of the men downtown. Now, say it again.I was asking, how did you feel about yourself and your life and your accomplishments here in Muncie? Oh, and he says, "Counting up the fathers and the mothers of the children that were on the social security," so he calls me and tells me. Now, I didn't solicit this, he just tells me. He asked me about the relationship between the Social Security, and he says, "You know that you have done more for the black people here in Muncie than you actually think you have?"[2:34:00] He says, "They ought to call you the `Father of Muncie.'" He says, "You give more people homes and brought closer together more people." He called a good many names that the children--that the fathers were not fathers that made a home for them. He says, "You have give them homes, fed them, cared for them." [2:35:00] Well I had to--I didn't know it just yet. He said, "We have made a survey of this." So I guess that to say I have. I haven't thought of it. But I have accomplished in church work here--I did more church work here than anywhere, making the building, getting the people together. [2:36:00] Getting them started to worship together and one of my accomplishments that I think I enjoy most of--is that when I came here there were what they call testimonies. Every first Sunday they'd have testimonies. And they'd get in there and such a look of fire [?], calling names I never heard before, So I said, "I'm going to stop that." [2:37:00] Said, "They're not doing a thing but hurting themselves, fussing and fighting. I said, "As far as I know, there will never be any more testimony services here." "Now, you--now you tear apart our meeting. That's where we have our fun." I called his bluff, "Now, that's true. Don't come here again for no testimony. From now on I should come in here and worship, sing your songs, say your45prayers and get out and go home." I [inaudible] and the churches got better, [inaudible] all over town. [2:38:00] They got so much better, and they could go to church Sunday night and feel safe. Starks: Well, that's all the questions I have for this interview. Is there anything--any experience or anything that you remember about Muncie that you think we should know that you'd like to tell us about? I think I have told you all that I can today.Interviewee: [2:38:49]End of interview46
  • Middletown Digital Oral History Collections
  • Black Middletown Project Collection
  • BMP_017
  • R21-017A and R21-017B and R21-017C
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  • Ball State University Libraries, Archives and Special Collections
Terms of Use
  • To order a copy, inquire about permissions, or for information about prices, contact Archives and Special Collections, Ball State University Libraries at (765) 285-5078 or via email at jstraw@bsu.edu,Copyright 2007. Ball State University, Routledge M. Dennis, Vivian V. Gordon, Black Middletown Project. All rights reserved.
Language
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