1980, 2007, English, Article, Sound, Interview, lecture, talk edition: Anonymous Interviewee (Black Middletown - L140) (Audio Interview and Transcript) Coignet, Mavis; Anonymous (Black Middletown - L140)

User activity

Send to:
Anonymous Interviewee (Black Middletown - L140) (Audio Interview and Transcript)
 
Bookmark: http://trove.nla.gov.au/version/1452657
Physical Description
  • 02:11:55, Audio Cassette, Streaming Audio (WMA) , PDF, Hardware: Tascam 322 2-Head Dual Auto Reverse Audio Cassette Recorders, PreSonus FIREBOX 2x6 Fire Wire Recording System , Software: Sony SoundForge 8 Audio Editing/​Mastering Software, File Type: wav , Sample Rate: 44.1 kHz , Bit Depth: 16, Derivatives created: Cleaned wav (Wave X-Noise, Normalize, and ExpressFX Dynamics applied) , Access wma , Black Middletown only: Anonymous wma
  • Sound , Text
Published
  • 1980?
  • 2007-02-26 - 2007-08-27
Language
  • English

Edition details

Title
  • Anonymous Interviewee (Black Middletown - L140) (Audio Interview and Transcript)
Author
  • Coignet, Mavis
  • Anonymous (Black Middletown - L140)
Published
  • 1980?
  • 2007-02-26 - 2007-08-27
Physical Description
  • 02:11:55, Audio Cassette, Streaming Audio (WMA) , PDF, Hardware: Tascam 322 2-Head Dual Auto Reverse Audio Cassette Recorders, PreSonus FIREBOX 2x6 Fire Wire Recording System , Software: Sony SoundForge 8 Audio Editing/​Mastering Software, File Type: wav , Sample Rate: 44.1 kHz , Bit Depth: 16, Derivatives created: Cleaned wav (Wave X-Noise, Normalize, and ExpressFX Dynamics applied) , Access wma , Black Middletown only: Anonymous wma
  • Sound , Text
Subjects
Notes
  • Muncie, Indiana
  • No audio for session 1. Missing end of interview on both sides of R21-018B and R21-018C.
  • Black Middletown Project R 21 Interviewer: Mavis Coignet Interviewee: Anonymous (Black Middletown - L140) Date of Interview: ca. 1980 No audio for session 1; session 2 and audio begin on page 10 Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: When did you come to Muncie? Nineteen four. Have you been here ever since? Well, oh, when I was younger. I was in and out, but that [?] I was still at home, this was my home. When I was younger, but I went around different places, you know, and finally wound up back here to stay. Well, what other places did you move to? Well, Hamilton High, that's where I married. And I worked for an asphalt company that worked all over this district. After I married, well, I, we came back here to Muncie, right to the home. I've been here ever since, as far as that's concerned. Of course, I go someplace and come back. Okay, where were you born? Ghent, Kentucky. Ghent? Ghent. And what year were you born? 1901. Okay, so you were raised in Muncie?Coignet: Interviewee:Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet:1Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee:Yeah, went to school here. Okay, how did you travel when you came to Muncie? Well, we came up here on a train? On a train? Came from Peru--my father went to Peru from Ghent and stayed a couple of years, and then he came here and we came on a train and then [inaudible]. Why did you leave Ghent? I guess in them days they had to go where they could get a job. Daddy got a job up in Peru, Indiana, in a factory. And then he sent for us, the family, to come up there. But of course, I don't remember much about Peru, `cause I was just a baby. So why did you decide to come to Muncie? Well, to get a job [inaudible]. After you came to Muncie, was there much communication between your family and friends? Not a great deal. We just go down there whenever we could. To take a [inaudible], you know, in fact there was a--`course we had a mother and father, but they live in another little town. In fact, that when I was twelve or thirteen years old. I used to go down there several summers and stay with my granddaddy and grandmother, I [inaudible] big enough to [inaudible] tobacco. When you moved to Muncie, who came with you? Mother, father, and my sister, and there was another family, the Duvall family, and they had--I think they had about four or five children. And what's the name? Duvall. Did your father know somebody who was in Muncie already before you all came? Yes. I think it was Mr. Duvall had come here before and they had been here and wasn't long after he came. They had came down here to get a job, and move down here. So Mr. Duvall encouraged your father to come?Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee:Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee:Coignet:2Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee:Um-hm. Okay. Um, do you know what he expected to find when he came here? Well, I don't know `cause all he wanted was a job, I imagine. `Course in them days, that was all that really matters. Man with family, if he had a job, why he could move in the community easily, and got along. And of course, this community out here, Whiteley, was known as Whiteley. But it was over half white and Negroes just move out here cause many of them work in Alabama [?], they need jobs. A house out here-- What street did you live on when you first got here? I live 9th Street, but it's Cook Street now. All the streets out here were numbers--1, 2, 3, 4--on the north, and east and west, A, B, C, D, E, F, Okay. What was your home like on Cook Street? Oh, well, it was four room house, they had had it builded. And just a four room house. How did you keep your food [inaudible]--from icebox? Yeah, far as I can remember, we had a icebox. Did you have in or outdoor plumbing? No, it was a outdoor. Didn't have water out here then, out here in Whiteley, then. Didn't have lights, water or anything. It's just wilderness in there. What was the neighborhood like then? Well, everybody seem to be [inaudible], you know, and accepted one another. They--well, `course, when I got school age, I went to school, and they all accepted us as Whiteley people. Because [inaudible] white and colored got along very good together. How many times did you move since you came to Muncie? Your first house on Cook Street? Well at first, let me get this straight here, we live in the house now ten and a lower, double house I mean, you know, fix so two family could live in it. We didn't live there too long, awful long. I think it was 1917 when my dad builded the house, over here on Cook Street. Damn quite sure it was, `cause I started to school from this house over there. I was six years old, you know.Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee:Coignet: Interviewee:3Coignet: Interviewee:And after living there where did you move? Well, I guess I just moved out then. I got married, move out and move to [inaudible], and yeah, I moved out and got a job. And when we came home, [inaudible]. We went on back to mama's and stayed there. In all we stayed there about two years. And on our [inaudible] there, you know, to keep house I moved down here on [inaudible] Avenue. How long did you stay there? Well, quite a while. Let me see, it was in '23. We stayed there until, I think it was '29. My wife--somehow people died--we moved in with her mother and sister. That was in '29. Was that in Muncie? Yes, it uh, ten hundred en hundred block on Morris Turner. In general, why did you move? Well, it was more convenient, you know, for us to live. My wife's cousin, he had owned the house and he died, and let my wife's sister with a load to carry. It wasn't paid for. Then I moved in there to help pay for the home. What was the neighborhood like there? It was pretty much the same. There was maybe one or two colored family and one or two white family. Where in the neighborhood did Negroes live? Oh, they live over, where they call the Industry, that was where Mrs. Farmer lived, and they were pretty much the same as it was out here, you know, two or three blacks, and two or three whites. And the most of them work at [inaudible], they got along fairly well. What kind of work was you doing, in Muncie in the twenties? Well, work at janitor work uptown. Let's see, I worked Hook's for about eight years, and--. Did you say Crook's? No, Hook's Drug Store. They had a drug store at Main and Mulberry.Coignet: Interviewee:Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee:Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee:Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee:4Coignet: Interviewee:And what other kinds of jobs were you holding? Well I, before that, I had worked at a hotel. Bellboy. Well I had work, at Hook's, the Ball Brothers, off and on when I was fourteen. You didn't stay there, you moved around, somewhere, get another job. Did your mother work? No, she never did work out. The work that your father got here, was it different from the work you were doing back in Kentucky? Oh, yeah, he was farming back there, but he worked in a factory whenever he left there. So, when he moved, in Peru, when he went to work in factory, and when he came here, he went to work in a factory, work factory the rest of his life. How did he feel about is work? Was he happy, or did he miss farming? No, he seem to be very well contented. Just he seem to be very well contented `cause after he learn the people here--`course they belong to--Well, there wasn't any colored churches out here to start with, and when we moved out here, but they went over to Calvary to church, and as children we went over there to church. But you walk from here over to Calvary every Sunday, twice a day. What other types of jobs did Negroes have? Well, they worked good bit around oh, most the stores uptown, and, you know, quarters and all like that, that type of work. And there's a lot of them working in factory, lot of them work in most all the factory. They were ever go and get people. You know, from they got a lot from mine city right there in St. Louis, they got a lot of Cincinnati. And then go down there a recruit workman, all they call it provided transportation--they paid your transportation. Was your income from your work enough to allow you to do what you wanted to do for yourself, or for your family? No, wages were low, and not saying, I guess, it was on account of being able to pick up neighbor, you know--didn't have any effect of any union. That, `course, glass workers, they had a union of their own. But Negroes didn't belong to it. Do they belong to any union now? Yeah, most of them do. What year did they start allowing Negroes to join the union?Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee:Coignet: Interviewee:Coignet: Interviewee:Coignet: Interviewee:Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet:5Interviewee:Well let's see, it got to the place where they had to take them in. Then they unionize these factories [inaudible]. They were already there, and they just took them in the union when they organize the unions around when they organize the laborers, in [inaudible]. They took them in there, and when all the rest of the unions took them in at the glass workers--`course they didn't last too long, after they unionize the rest of the laborers, `course, like last the last worker didn't last too long. What was some of the things you wanted to do for your family and couldn't because of you're not making enough money? Well, I don't really know of anything, `cause I always, from the time I was fourteen years old, I had me a job somewhere. And --it wasn't a whole lot of things--I, `course, I gave my mother--I always gave my mother every time [inaudible]. I paid but-- Did you ever work more than one job at a time? Oh, not a very long time. I guess I have worked places where I work two jobs, and no, I can't say that I've worked two jobs really. What was the biggest problem when you got to this city, your father's biggest problem? Well, he didn't seem to have any problem. He came here and got a job. He was never out of a job until he retired. `Course, back there somewhere they had a labor trouble here. They had their street car. They were unionize, you know, and they had a strike. Other than that--oh, course after the [inaudible] all together factories got to be union factories, you know they had strikes, periodically. Were there any people, groups, or organization that helped you when you got here? I'm not really sure, but I don't think they did because the way my dad hated, you know, any charity. He wouldn't stood for at all, I don't think. Long as he was making a dollar, that's what matter to him. What about during the twenties? Did you know of any groups or organization that helps people when they got here to settle down? Myself, I can't recall any. They did have a welfare organization, but I guess they help the way they were supposed to help. Did you ever join any group, or organization?Coignet: Interviewee:Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee:Coignet: Interviewee:Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet:6Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee:No. How was your family life? What was your family life like during the Depression? I worked at up Hook's Drugstore all during the Depression. Didn't have any, you know, real problems. Had a little money coming in all the time. Did you get any help from any government program? No, `cause I never was in the Army. Lot of them was in the Army, I guess, they got a little assistance [inaudible], but I was never in the Army. I was a year too young. Um-hm. To enlist? I never got in the Army at all. What was the most memorable experiences during the Depression? Well, I don't remember seeing them standing around selling those apples, you know, but there was more or less welfare for you in the winter. What did you do for fun during the Depression? Well, I don't know. There was a pool room down on Broadway. Remember the name of it? Benson. S. W. Benson. Well, I worked there for awhile, and if I run out of a job, I always had a job with Mr. Benson. I got back there and worked. So, did they have dances or--? Yeah, they had dances. There was uh, as I [?] older there were social clubs, you know, Bachelor Benedict, was uh, club. They gave dances once a year, ever year, all like that. There were several other clubs, down here that did the same thing. Were you a member of the Bachelor Benedict? Yes. Did you join any other social club? No, I don't think I did. I don't remember. Um, Did you ever join any political organization?Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee:Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet:7Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee:Yes, I belong to Republican Central Committee, and I was precinct committee member. Lucile had to join everything, she belong to everything. You said you were a member of the Republican Central Committee? Um-hm. I am. You said you were a precinct committeeman? Uh, and what were your duties? Well, we organize precinct. Negroes were really republican on account of Abraham Lincoln, all that back in them years, they changes come on up from there. And really, where in Muncie, we--they were mostly republican. But they [inaudible] Second World War. They got Negroes in here over night, democratic, you know, but before that we didn't have any trouble getting any votes. About what year were you--? Precinct committeeman? It was in 1940, 1945, and on to '50-something. I don't remember. `Course my wife was a vice-chairman. All time she was vicechairman, for the [inaudible] district--precinct--for a number of years. She wrote a column to the press for twenty, no, thirty years. I think they care if she had thirty years or something? And what was your wife's name? Georgia. Okay. She was a colored [inaudible]. Um uh. Yeah, `course, Vern Olviera [?], when he came here he got out of the colored use business and difficulty. He didn't want the colored business. I saw one of her articles, someone gave me one. Lot of that stuff got away from me when I moved, but didn't have no place to put it, and just got away from me. How did the Depression affect your educational opportunity? Well, the Depression didn't affect my opportunity, you know, I was too old then. How did moving here affect your educational opportunity for yourself and your family? Well, I guess, moving here from Peru, still was a child--child wouldn't have any idea how it would affect me. `Course, I didn't finish high school, and I didn't go to college, and didn't have much effect on me. That's somebody out there?Coignet: Interviewee:Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee:Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee:8Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee:I don't think so. I don't see anybody. Do you think the schools were better in Muncie, than in [inaudible]? [inaudible] Did your father go to school? No, my mother went to school. She went to [inaudible] Center, what they called boarding school then. They went to college, you know. Then when she graduate from there, why, she was able to teach school in Kentucky. Of course, she seen to it that my little sister went to college--boarding school, that's what it was. What school did you go to in Muncie? I went to Longfellow, up there where the community center is. Went to high school, that's about the extent of my education. I didn't finish high school. How far did you go? My third year. How would you describe the relationship between, among colored people, when you came here? Well, far as I knew, you know, it was pretty good. `Course, I seen the time when I first got old enough to go anywhere, and [inaudible] you can go anywhere, nickel shows and stuff like that. Then you got the place to see shows unless, you set in a certain location, you know. I seen the time when two thousand out there in park [inaudible] up them white rope, course they had the [inaudible] on this side of Broadway where the filling station is, right there. And they gave Veterans about the biggest building in Muncie. They had try outs. After they [inaudible], why, it tighten up here in Muncie. Black Negroes going different places, knowing we got [inaudible]. Keep them out of restaurant, and keep them out of the shows and things like that. But it work back around, where it will pretty well [inaudible] too much. Do you remember any experiences, with the Klan? Well, no, they never did bother anybody, but one man, they took him out and whipped him. And other than that they really didn't bother anybody, `cause all the time they were out here parading around, I just pass right through, paying them no attention, you know. They didn't bother me, and I didn't bother them. Why did they whip the man? Well, I used to fill these doors with [inaudible].Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee:Coignet: Interviewee:Coignet: Interviewee:9Coignet: Interviewee:Did the Depression period change relationships between blacks? No, it didn't seem to really change it, `cause it was as many whites out of work, as it was blacks out of work. It didn't seem to make a whole lot of difference, cause they were all [inaudible] they were, half and half. `Course, when the layoff-- didn't fit either one certain section, you know, would be laid off--usually it was about half and half. What was the most important thing blacks done as a group here in Muncie? Well, very little, if I can think of. Who was the leaders you consider as having done the most for Negroes in Muncie? Well, haven't been too many Negroes leaders that [inaudible] because, most [inaudible] changes things around. But other than that, I don't know any outstanding Negroes that have really contributed anything to. I have down in my [inaudible] room in the garage. Some lady came along, said it was her trunk. Dump the stuff out.Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee:End of session 1; begin session 2 and audio Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: [1:00] This is Mavis Coignet for the Black Middletown Project. This is the second session. You said you were from Ghent, Kentucky? That's right. And what year did you come to Muncie? Nineteen four. And you were how old at that time? Three, three years. I was born in 1901. My dad moved here to work. Okay, what household things did your family bring when they came, do you know? No, I don't `cause they lived in Peru, Indiana before they came here and moved from Ghent to Peru.10I don't know. I was too small to know what they had in there, the houses were made out of old boxcars and--well, there was a foundry there and the men worked in the foundry and they made these houses out of old boxcars. But I don't remember anything really about Peru. Coignet: Interviewee: Who was here when your parents arrived? There was a family named Duvall that had moved here from Peru--moved to Ghent from Peru--I mean, from Ghent to Peru and then they moved over here before my dad came `cause he was always--Mr. Duvall was kind of a leader, you know.[2:00] He came here and got a job at Whiteley Malleable and--well, there was several of them that came after that. I don't remember too much about it `cause I was too young really. Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: [3:00] Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: What kind of work did you father do, when he first arrived? He worked at the Malleable, Whiteley Malleable, they cast things, you know. They made iron--you know, iron casting. Okay, did you mother work? No. You said Mr. Duvall was a leader. You mean that he just lead your father? Yeah. Oh, okay. He wasn't the head of an organization or anything? No, he wasn't head of organization, they just-- Okay. How did you parents travel here? Do you know that? Train. Just train. Train. See, you know, run through Peru and on in here and on in Cincinnati, it did at that time.11Coignet: Interviewee:When you were of age what jobs did you get? Well, I went to work--my first real job was at Ball Brother's glass factory. I was fourteen years old but I worked during the summer and went to school during the winter and I worked on Saturdays in the winter time.[4:00] Coignet: Interviewee: And after Ball Brothers where did you go to work? Let me see, first--probably the real job I had was at Hook's Drug Store. That was Main and Mulberry at that time. I worked there for--I think it was about seven or eight years, I'm not sure. And after that? Well, I went back to Ball Brothers. [laughs]Coignet: Interviewee: [5:00]I've had several jobs in Muncie, but I always went back to Ball Brothers. When I got out of a job I could go there and I always had a job. Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: [6:00] Interviewee: Well, no. `Course the only reason I was really held back was in education. Didn't have that education, you know, didn't have enough education to be something great. [laughs] So you feel that if you had had the opportunity to get a better education that you would not have been held back regardless of your race? No, it--at one time here, why, you could go most anywhere in Muncie and be served. Why did you--did you go back to Ball Brothers for any particular reason? No, just to have jobs. Just to go back-- And have a job. Oh I, from the time I was fourteen I don't think I was out of a job, you know, more than thirty days. Do you feel that you were held back on your job because of your race? Did you ever feel that way?Coignet: Interviewee:12[7:00] When I was--well, I'd say when I was fourteen or fifteen we could go almost anywhere and be served but along about that time, why, things tightened up here and it got so you couldn't go anywhere--black man couldn't go in the restaurants and he couldn't go--well, it got so bad that he couldn't go to the show, the nickel show and--well, they had twenty-five cent show too. You couldn't go there and then that didn't last long, but what happened is they set a section aside for black people. Now, if they went to that show they had to sit in that section. [8:00] And well--at that particular time it got--filled up with Ku Klux `cause they had a governor [inaudible] elected a governor in Indiana. Ku Klux governor and things-- Coignet: Interviewee: What was his name? Oh, uh--I'll tell you in a minute. I knew it. He just got out of prison about two years ago. [laughs] Well, he killed a woman over in Indianapolis and they sent him to prison, he just got out a couple years ago.[9:00] Now--I'll think of it. Next time I think of it I'll write it down. [laughs] Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: We can come back to it later. On your job did you get exactly the same work a white person did? Yes, but--yes, just about the same. Did you get the same pay? Yeah, about the same pay `cause there were a lot of youngsters worked where I did at Ball Brothers, and we all got the same pay. `Course there were different jobs that were supposed to be--[inaudible] and a presser they got the high money and--but they were black ones.[10:00] But they were black ones and there wasn't any `gether. They belonged to the union. They belonged to the union they were all white. Got to the place where there were black--what they call presser and they got the same as the white ones did.13Coignet: Interviewee: [11:00]What about foreigners? Were there many people from other countries here in Muncie at that time? At that time there weren't too many.I was trying to think of a group of people that were foreign. They usually stayed together when they came to this country, but I don't think of any particular group that--there were a lot of Germans, and uh, there were a lot of Italians working in these factories around here. They brought in quite a few black men. They'd go to Cincinnati and call them shipping them up here. You know, they would ride transportation. They would go down there and get them and guarantee them a job when they got here and bring them up here. [12:00] Well, the Ball Brothers and then the Muncie Foundry--had foundry here they called Muncie Foundry--why, they would go to St. Louis and Cincinnati and bring workmen here. Coignet: Interviewee: [13:00] `Cause you had to open the mold and set the hot jar down on a book--what they call a book and you had to get it to the layer--carry it in. Well, they had forks that you would put in there and carry it and put in the layer and it wasn't a whole lot of skill, [laughs] you know. Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: But what did you do if you wanted to get more pay or move up on the job? Usually you went and got another job. [both laugh] Yeah, you had to go somewhere else to get a little--a job that paid more than the job that you had. What was the name of the school you attended? Longfellow. Longfellow, and where was that located? Broadway and Highland, where the Buley Center is now. Did you get training on your job that helped you to get promoted? No, there wasn't a whole lot of training `cause anybody could do the job, you know. It wasn't any real training.14[14:00] Coignet: Interviewee: Could you describe your school for me? About how many students? Oh, there was--when I started school there were eight rooms. It was a brick school, they had just built it. The year before I started school--`course my sister, she went to school where Shaffer Chapel is now. There's a building there that-- course she went there as long as--before I went. What was the name of that school by Shaffer Chapel? It was Longfellow [inaudible]. Oh, that was Longfellow also. Um-hm. It was transferred from one place to the other.Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: [15:00]Course there was a building at the corner of--it was on this same street but it was right catty-cornered across the street from where the new school building is. At that particular time they didn't have--I would imagine that they only had fifty or sixty children there at that time. Coignet: Interviewee: Was it integrated? Yeah. Um-hm.Pause in recording Coignet: [16:00] Interviewee: Well, I didn't think much about it at that time. I thought it was all right, that's what most of `em were doing. And I didn't really realize of course, I didn't realize about going--preparing for college and things like that because I didn't have any thoughts of even going to college though. As long as you had a job, why, that was good enough. So a lot of students worked--I mean dropped out of school for-- Yeah. Uh-huh. They couldn't drop out and not go to school until they were fourteen. You had to go to school till you were fourteen. How did you feel about your education? You said that you had to stop going to school because you had to work right?Coignet: Interviewee:15Coignet: Interviewee: [17:00]What subjects did you study? Oh, just--wasn't anything special.You took reading, writing and arithmetic. And, well, they even had music teacher. Let's see what there was another specialty--we had another special teacher. [pause] I don't remember now. Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: [18:00] You know, pertaining to blacks. Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Do you remember in general, like maybe you might not remember the name of the book but-- Yeah, well--there were some books that I read. `Course most of them were novels that you could get out of the library. So, do you remember reading any books about blacks while you were in school? Books from school? No, I didn't have much in them about blacks per se, you know, `course we realized that a lot of these people were working were blacks, but they didn't even tell you that they were blacks [inaudible]. Did you read any books about blacks? Yes. Can you remember the names of the books that you read? Let me see--no, I don't think I remember any particular book that I read.[19:00] Big steel mill--well, they organized a big steel mill here in Gary, and you didn't realize that just about half of those men working in the steel mill were black. And [inaudible], you didn't realize that quite a few of them were black, course they went down south and shipped them up here to work in the mills and course they just learned there trade from working with somebody that knew how to do it. But there were quite a few blacks who--well, we realized all of that `cause were thrown with people from those areas. [20:00]16Coginet: Interviewee:Did whites discourage the education of black people? Well, I don't think they encouraged it. [laughs] I really don't believe that they encouraged it. Course there were black colleges, Booker T. Washington College and Howard University it was black. Meharry was a black school for doctors.[21:00] And we realized all those things, but it was beyond really--unless your parents were making enough money to send you, why, you didn't get to go `cause you couldn't make enough money yourself and go to school. Coignet: Interviewee: Do you remember the name of any of any other black colleges that you heard about when you were growing up? Well I think everybody knew mostly about Tuskegee, and everybody knew about Howard University. But it was more or less out of your mind `cause you knew you'd never get to go there, unless something happened.[22:00] Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: [23:00] Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: I really don't believe so. Did many who graduated from grade school go on to study in high school? Well, there were a few. I was just talking to a fella here the other day that--well, I went all through grade school with him and went to high school for a while-- Were your teachers black or white? All the teachers in school here were white. Did you go to school with a particular job in mind? Did you go to school to think that maybe one day you'd be--? No. I always wanted to be a doctor, but that was just a thing that--[laughs] imagination. Did your schooling help you get the job that you had at Ball Brothers? No, it didn't. Did your schooling help you get a job better than blacks with less schooling?17`course he was a couple years older than I was, and he went out for basketball. `Course he got to be pretty good but they didn't--they wouldn't let him play as a regular. [24:00] He was just--more or less practice with them. And then, a lawyer came along he decided he was going to have Harvey play on the regular team. Well he worked and worked and worked and worked up to that point and Harvey got to play just now and then. Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: [25:00] Interviewee: I expect he could tell you a whole lot of things too `cause he stayed here in Muncie and went away to school for a while but he didn't make it you know and came back here. Did you have any children? No. So, how many years of schooling did you finish? Let's see, I--six and two--would be eight. I graduated from grade school ahead of time. What was his last name? Scott. Harvey Scott? Um-hm. Does he still live in Muncie? Yes, he lives over here on--oh let's see, next street down here [inaudible]. Okay. I'd like to get in touch with him and talk to him.Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: [26:00]I went to high school two years, maybe two and a half. Coignet: Um-hm. Around what year did most others stop?18Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: [27:00]Most of them stopped when they were thirteen or fourteen. Did your parents go to school? My mother did but my father didn't have any schooling at all. My mother--well, her mother--was half-white. [knock on door]Pause in recording Coignet: Interviewee: Oh, you were telling me how much education your mother had. Well they sent her to--her mother was raised inside--slaves. She was raised inside and they sent her to school. Of course, she in turn seen that her daughter got to go to school. They sent her to Louisville--I think it was Kentucky State College. I really believe that's what it was. I don't--I'm not sure what it was, but they sent her there and I guess it was like a boarding school.[28:00] I think--I don't know how long she went--I think she went about three years, then she eligible to come back to her home and teach. `Course I don't know how long she taught. I never heard anybody say my sister may know how long she taught school but she had a little better education than average. She in turn sent my sister to Louisville. Boarding college is what it was. [29:00] Coignet: Interviewee: Um-hm. Which blacks were most likely to go to college would you say? The children of laborers, or businessmen, ministers? Ministers more than likely--or minister's children went to school and I guess there was some of laborers. Over in some of the mills that made pretty good money, I think they sent their children away to school. But other than that there was very little schooling of black people [inaudible] up until oh [inaudible].Side 1 ends; side 2 begins [30:00] Coignet: Interviewee: Okay. There was a girl that lived out on 12th street--Hope, Agnes Hope. Her father worked at Ball Brothers, and he sent her away to school. I don't know whether19she finished college or not, but there wasn't really anything for her to do when she got back here. There wasn't no school for her to teach or anything like that. Coignet: [31:00] Interviewee: No. She went down to southern Illinois, Marion, Illinois. There were a lot of colored people down there. Trying to think--something happened to her here last month or so. Well, maybe some of the rest of them knew what did happen. What was your transportation in school? How did you get there, did you--? Walked. Walked. How far away was the school from where you lived? Nine blocks from where I lived when I went to grade school. Did she stay here?Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: [32:00]Then when I went to high school, it was uptown. It was--you know where the Ball Brothers building is? It was there. And you had to walk from Kirk Street to 9th Street to school, that was a good little walk. I'm not sure how many squares but-- Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: [33:00] No, I--the girl stepped back from me. They were all--well, they were all--all of them they were really nice, but I'd always get playing with her, you know, reach--She took her ribbon off her hair and laid it across the desk and I reached back and got it and pulled it, and the principal happened to be standing outside [laughs] looking in. He come in and give me a paddling. [both laugh] Coignet: [34:00] Did you ever feel like the black students were punished more than the whites? Were you punished in school? I think I got one where--they paddled you then. Um-hm. Why were you punished? [laughs] Fooling with white gals. [both laugh]20Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: [35:00] Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee:No, I don't believe so when I grew up. I don't believe so because they'd punish them white ones just as quick as they would the black ones. Can you think of any black families where the entire family worked for one white family over the years? Let me see. I really don't remember any black families here but-- Where just about every member of your family worked for a white family?Same white people--good many of my family worked for one white family as they came along, you know. So that would be the Balls? Family, they worked for, oh--lived right out of Louisville, Kentucky and all of them around there, you know. They were just like I was going to Ball Brothers, as they got up old enough they'd go out there and work for them.[36:00] Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Do you know of any situations like that in Muncie? No, I don't. I really don't. Why did blacks lose their jobs? Move their jobs? Lose their jobs. Oh, well most of them--they would probably do something. `Course I don't remember a whole lot of them losing their jobs really, unless they got dissatisfied and wanted to move away or something like that. There wasn't no big thing where they fired them just `cause they was black and all that, I don't think they did that.[37:00] Coignet: Interviewee: Did you or many black workers have black bosses? Yeah, there was usually on--well, especially at Ball Brothers, on every shift there was a black leader and he got a little more than the rest of them did but--on desk21where the main desk and all like that--those were black jobs and they usually had a black foreman. Coignet: [38:00] Interviewee: There wasn't much difference, wasn't much difference. `Course, my father, he worked up to be boss before he retired, you know. But that was just `cause he had worked there so long, knew the ins and outs and everything but he didn't have an education either. Do you know any blacks that managed white businesses? Where the owner was actually white and they had black managers? No, I don't believe I do. I don't believe I know of them. Did you or other black workers prefer to work for a black boss or a white boss?Coignet: Interviewee: [39:00] Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: [40:00]Were there any black doctors, dentists, nurses or midwives? Yeah, they--black dentists came here. Oh--Dr. Brooks came here from school and there were several physicians that came here. Do you remember their names? Oh--I'll have to give that some thought too.I think I would write them down. There were several physicians here, in and out of here, and `course naturally most Negroes went to them `cause--physicians and dentists. Coignet: Interviewee: [41:00] Oh, what you call a midwife, you know, `course she helped my sister when she gave birth to her boy. And `course she worked here for a long time around and out of the hospital and around in the private families, you know. That's what they call her, Ms. White. I forget what her first name was. Coignet: And you said that most of, um--black people went to the black doctors? Do you remember any nurses or midwives? Yeah, there was White--her last name was White. She was nurse.22[42:00] Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: `Course there were some of them that didn't go, they went out to the white doctors. Do you know why? No. They just feeling, I'd imagine, that some of them had that--I imagine some of them had a feeling that black doctors and dentists didn't know what they were doing. But they--a lot of them become outstanding and went somewhere else and became outstanding. What were the major causes of death? Was it sickness or accidents? Well, a lot of them had T.B.Coignet: Interviewee: [43:00]I guess--well, I guess it was a lot of white people at that time had T.B. They didn't know how to treat it. `Course it got to the place where they put `em-- segregated them, you know. White and black, if you had T.B. you went to the-- Rest House they called it. But that was probably caused from the lack of right vitamins and things in that day. Coignet: [44:00] Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Well, I guess most of them died early as the fifties, you know. We very seldom see black people much older than fifty. What was your basic diet? What kind of food did you eat? Pork [laughs]. No, I mean, a lot of people ate beef, but a lot of them ate fowl, you know, just any kind of turkey things like that, and a lot of them ate pork. `Course it was easy to raise. At what age did most black people die in that--back in those days?[45:00] I remember from buying a hog myself when I was a youngster. I paid three dollars for it. Coignet: Wow!23Interviewee:And where we lived, the street wasn't cut through. It was just, you know, bushy and things where the street should have been, and we had a hog pen out there in the street. My dad always raised two or three hogs to be killed, butchered. So, did you grow a lot of your food? Yeah, I always had a garden and we grew a lot of food.Coignet: Interviewee: [46:00] Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: [47:00] Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: [48:00] Coignet: Interviewee:Did you hunt? Well, my dad didn't do much hunting but when I got big enough myself I'd go hunting a lot--rabbit hunting and like that. And where was this house, um--where you had the farm? Right here. Where did you shop for food? Well, there were--let's see, Pittenger's Grocery, Bernard's [?] Grocery and-- [pause]In the early days, how many rooms were there in your home? Well, to start with, there was four. But they added on to it and got it up to eight. And how many people lived there? Well, my mother and father and sister, myself and I--had two cousins that my mother and father raised. That was all of our family. How did you get your household furnishings? Had to buy them.Was it easy to get credit in those days? Did you buy furniture on credit? Yes, we bought furniture on credit. It wasn't too difficult if you had a history of working.24Coignet: Interviewee:Did any black people use alcohol and drugs back in those days? An awful lot of them used alcohol, but I never heard of anybody using drugs. There are awful lot of people who used alcohol `cause that always was natural. I don't know why, but [laughs] you didn't see no whole lot of drunkards, you know, staggering around.[49:00] They usually went home [inaudible], got too much and went to bed. Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: How did they get it? Well, they bought most of it. What about when it was illegal? Well, we bought it then. Bought it [both laugh]--bought it up in Ohio. I went and hauled it, you know, bring back fifteen or twenty gallons. We were family-- kind of family--memorial family where the whole, you know--they were most of them were German up here right out of Union City.[50:00] A part of it's in Ohio and part in Indiana, but they made some awful good whiskey. [laughs] Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: [51:00] Coignet: Interviewee: So, you had a little business going? [both laugh] Well, I wasn't that tight. You know, I could've made money but I--if I went and got--if I went up there and they give me the money to get it with that was it. You used to haul liquor back in-- Yeah. Whenever I went up there I just bring back as much as I could, you know. Did you know of anybody else who did it? Helping? Um-hm. Well, yeah. Of course, usually I went up there--always somebody that wanted me to. "Bring me two gallons, bring me so much and so much." And--25Brought it back and give it to them. That was it, `cause I was going. I never did make a habit--a business out of it. `Course there were two or three fellas that did kinda make a business out of it, but they never got anywhere with it. Coignet: Interviewee: [52:00] Coignet: Interviewee: Is he still in Muncie? No, he's dead. And Dan [inaudible]. He's dead. [pause] But they never made a fortune or anything. You know what I mean? Whenever they was going, why, they get as much money as they had. You give them money, why, they'd bring it back. Why did you happen to go up that way? Well, I got to--people got to go up there and buying the whiskey, you know, and found out it was really good whiskey. Do you remember their names? What was his first name? Last name was Jones. Andy, Andy Jones.Coignet: Interviewee: [53:00] Coignet: Interviewee:So, you weren't working up there, you'd just go up and-- No, just go up there. My dad had an automobile at that time. He was--oh, I don't suppose there were over a half dozen people that had an automobile when he bought his. But he never did learn to drive, all the driving fell on me. [both laugh] Um-hm. Do you remember what kind of automobile he had? Um-hm. Buick, 1916 Buick. Four-cylinder and we kept it a long time.Coignet: Interviewee: [54:00]Oh, not too off, and one he got it I think in 19--, about 1918, and I think the next car he got was a '28. He bought that used. Coignet: Interviewee: Coginet: Where were blacks buried? Where were blacks buried? Yeah, where were their cemeteries at?26Interviewee:They buried them out here same cemetery that's out here now. They didn't have any special burying place for `em. They're all over, this cemetery out here and there.[55:00] You go there now and find, you know, tombstones and people that lived here, oh, fifty years ago. There never was any difference in--wherever you could get a lot, why, you better. Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: [56:00] Well, I used to work for a--he came from Nora [?]. His name was [inaudible] but he believed in that. [Coignet laughs] I remember we would [laughs] and it would work. Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: [57:00] Coignet: Does he still live in Muncie? So you never went to any? Well, he worked with me for several years. I just didn't believe in it. [laughs] He swore by it. Did any white people go to the conjurers? Not that I know of. He may have had some white friends that went to Nora [?] that I didn't know of. So, it's not a black cemetery? Uh-uh. It's just everybody. Um-hm, Beech Grove. Were there any conjurers or healers [Interviewee laughs] back in those days? Yeah, they were-- Do you remember who they were? No. [pause] Not in particular.27Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee:No, he's dead. Do you know if any of his family is still here? No, because his family was from Kentucky and he came to Hamilton, worked in an asphalt paving company and that's the way I got to know him. He, himself, he never did live in Muncie. He lived in Hamilton. So you don't know of any conjurers or healers in Muncie? Unh-uh.Coignet: Interviewee: [58:00] Coignet: Interviewee:Where were black people hospitalized? At the Ball Memorial had a name of a home hospital. It was right on Mulberry, down on Mulberry Street. When we knew anything about a hospital, that's the only hospital--home hospital and that's where you went if you got sick. Were there any all-black hospitals? Unh-uh. Or rest homes? Unh-uh. Nursing homes? Unh-uh. How were the blacks hospitalized? Was there segregation? Yeah, it was segregated.Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: [59:00]They tried to keep them segregated, but sometime it was impossible. But they didn't make no big thing out of it. They just tried to keep it segregated and when they built the new hospital out there where it is now--why, they tried to keep them segregated to a certain extent, but if they got in a pinch they'd put black and white in the same rooms, never was anything done about it. Coignet: What were some of the best home remedies back in those old--do you know any?28Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: [1:00:00] Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: [1:01:00] Interviewee:No. Your mother have any? She always had something, for anything you had [laughs]. I don't remember, recall any particular one.So, you didn't use any--but she used them on you? Did they work? Yeah, most of them did. But you don't use any now. Unh-uh. In the old days, how did people feel about the physically handicapped? Well, they tried to hide them, really. That's what happened. If they were physically handicapped, why, they weren't seen too much of. Do you remember any people who were in wheelchairs or were blind, deaf, paralyzed?Not to name them, I couldn't name them. But I do know that some of them were--had to get around in a wheelchair but you didn't see them there much, you kept them-- So, did people--Coignet:Tape 1 ends; tape 2 begins Coignet: Interviewee: [1:02:00] And there were several people out there that were handicapped, you know. In fact, there was a colored boy that practically half his life was spent out there. So, handicapped people were mainly cared for by their families? They didn't have any homes? They had what's it called at that time the poor farm county home, that's what it was.29Coignet: Interviewee:Do you remember where that was? The county home was out here on East Jackson Street. It's still there now, but oh, Sam Jackson was the boy's name. He was a--oh, well, he couldn't walk very well and his arms were partially paralyzed.[1:03:00] He stayed out there a good bit of his life. Coignet: Interviewee: Who were the black leaders in the nation at that time? [pause] Do you remember the Marcus Garvey movement? Yeah, I knew about Marcus Garvey but--and `course man was for Marcus Garvey that had the school down there. Booker T. Washington, I knew about him. And Carver, I knew about him.[1:04:00] And being more or less outstanding towards, they had something to talk about. Carver, he did a lot that people will never know that he did with the peanut. I'd imagine that Carver's family would never have been where they are if it hadn't been for Carver--I mean--yeah, his name is Carver. Coignet: [1:05:00] Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: [1:06:00] I never did join Marcus Garvey Group. There was a group called Woodmen. Coignet: The what? Yeah, `cause that's all I knew. All I knew. Do you remember what they represented? Well, no, I didn't know the titles that they gave but they were well liked, you know, people reading about `em. Did you join any black political groups such as NAACP or the Marcus Garvey group? I joined the NAACP. Did you agree with those leaders at that time? Garvey and--30Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: [1:07:00]Woodmen. Woodmen? They used axes in place of their guns. Why, they marched, you know, with axes. `Course Marcus Garvey he tried to take the black man back to Africa. Were you a member of the Woodmen group? Yeah, belonged to it for a while.`Course it came out of the West, but they never did make any headway on getting the black people together to do anything special for themselves, just more or less [inaudible]. They had--it was more or less like a lodge `cause they had, in every city they could get in, they had a group. Coignet: Interviewee: [1:08:00] Coignet: Interviewee: How did you feel about black men having to go to the military? Well, I thought it was something great. `Cause I couldn't go. Yeah, I tried several times to enlist in the First World War, you know. It was just at the particular time--I was only seventeen--the recruiting officer knew me `cause he--I had worked at the hotel when he--I was at the Delaware Hotel--and he knew me. There was, I think there were six of us went up to join, to sign up one day. Did you or any member of your family ever serve in the military? No. No, ducked that. [laughs][1:09:00] And he signed them all up, comes to my name and he tossed it back on the desk. [laughs] And he got to [inaudible], "Now, you're going to have to go out with me and have your dad sign this." I done told him I was eighteen, but I was seventeen. [laughs] So I told him, "It ain't on me to go `cause he ain't going to sign it." And by the time I got to eighteen, where I could join myself, why, the war was over and they wasn't taking any recruits, unless they'd been there. Coignet: Interviewee: Did you vote? Yeah, I voted when I got old enough, yeah.31[1:10:00] Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: [1:11:00] Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: [1:12:00] Coignet: Interviewee: Can you think of any others? Yeah, let's see. Dr. Brooks, he dabbled in--he was a dentist--he dabbled in it for a while. Willy Fowlkes, I think you've heard of him, he was a precinct when they went over in `20. [pause] [inaudible] Do you feel there were any shady dealings between white and black politicians? Well, I don't think there was too much really. I really don't think there was too much. Who were the local black leaders? Politically, a fella by the name of Wick Adams. He'd been politician all the-- every since I could remember. And-- Is he still around? No, he's dead. Did any blacks or whites try to stop you or other blacks from voting? Never did. You say you were a committeeman? Um-hm. Yeah, a precinct committeeman. Around what years was this? Let's see--oh, it was about about '20, '24, I think--`30, about '32, somewhere along in there.Coignet: [1:13:00]32Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee:And my wife and I were--she was my wife as long as I was precinct committeeman. What was the duty--what were your duties as a precinct committeeman? Well, you organized people, and they usually gave you some kind of a regulation job where you could come in contact with people, see where--my wife was tax assistant and she had several jobs. She worked at the courthouse in the--[knock at the door][1:14:00] Pause in recording Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: You were telling me about your duties as a committeeman. Well, I went around and talked to `em, see if you could get them to vote. [something falls, loud noise] Uh, oh. It's okay. [both laugh] Yeah, at one time out here we had fifteen hundred registered voters. And that was in this neighborhood, you know, this block around--And at one time we got eleven hundred republican votes out of this precinct. Most of them were [laughs] republican.[1:15:00] Coignet: Interviewee: Um--so were you paid for this job or-- Well, you wasn't exactly paid, but there was always something come along where you'd get other jobs doing things, and they'd pay you. `Course, my wife, she got a steady job--she had a steady job for quite a few years. So if your man got elected to office--? No, it gotta--course she worked the Evening Press, was a reporter, you know, and she kept that job. Well, I think Parkinson, he just died this last week--do you remember seeing Parkinson died here in Muncie Press?Coignet: Interviewee:[1:16:00] Coignet: Interviewee: Um-hm. Well, he always seen that she had a job somewhere up there in the press office.33Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet:And what was your wife's name? Georgia. Georgia.Pause in recording Coignet: Interviewee: [1:17:00] And they came out of Virginia and settled up in Kentucky, the old--I mean white folks. And they brought them--brought my grandfather with them. And when they got up there in Virginia--I mean Kentucky, why, seemed like some of them died and the women that were left, they gave the land away, gave it to the slaves. `Course my grandfather, he moved away and didn't pay his tax on it, [laughs] and that's the way it got out of their hands. Coignet: [1:18:00] Interviewee: Um-hm, grandfather used to sit down at night, you know, [laughs] unwind some of the awfulest yarns. I didn't have a whole lot of confidence in a lot of what he told me, but I guess it was just about right though. Living on down through the years I see where it could have been just about like he said. Maybe I could come back another time and you could tell me about his stories. How were household servants treated by their employers around in this area? Course around here, Indiana, they didn't have slaves. You see, it was free. Indiana's free and they had underground railroad, you know. Did they tell you any stories about slavery? Were you grandparents slaves? You said that your great--your grandmother was half-white. What about your grandfather? Well, I really don't know about my grandfather on my mother's side, but my grandmother and grandfather on my father's side, they were slaves.Coignet: Interviewee: [1:19:00]They took the slaves from Kentucky on up into Canada, and all over in that way but--[phone rings] Pause in recording34Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee:Can you hear? Um-hm. I was asking you about the household service around in the town when you came to Muncie. Uh--housework? Uh-huh. Well, most all of the wealthy ones had colored help. And they usually was plenty of jobs for colored women, you know, cooking, washing, cleaning, [unintelligible].[1:20:00] Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: How were they treated by their employers? Most of them were treated real good after they got used to `em, found them out, you know. If they were honest, why, they'd go overboard. How were public facilities back then? The parks-- The parks, and things they had--Pause in recording Coignet: Interviewee: I was asking you about the parks and restaurants. Were they segregated? Yeah, the parks were, to an extent, segregated. McCullough Park--`course you can go to Heekin Park and go most any place in there, but you weren't supposed to cross over the drive out here in this park.[1:21:00] `Course a lot of them didn't, well, had to go across there to go to a ball game and all like that. But you weren't supposed to go there and spread your dinner or anything. Coignet: Interviewee: And what about the buses and the movie theatres? Like I told you before, that it was up to a time there wasn't anything said, all at once they quit letting you go to the shows. If you went you had to sit in the restricted area and `course buses--there weren't too many buses there and one of `em was a colored man that drove the bus, you know.[1:22:00]35He had a bus come out here in Whiteley, and they didn't raise too much Cain about the bus business `cause-- Pause in recording Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: [1:23:00] Coignet: Interviewee: Who disciplined the children? My mother. I got more whippings from my mother than--[laughs] You going to get wound up when people come back after you. [laughs] Um-hm. Who decided the rules for the family in the old days? Man. The man that was a must, [laughs] really. So your father decided the rules? Uh-huh. Course I expect my mother had a lot to do with it but in the subtle way they know how to handle the man. [laughs]Interviewee 2: [inaudible] I reckon [inaudible] Interviewee: Yeah, she'd tie you up boy.Interviewee 2: [talking at the same time; inaudible] I get you and that be the end of it. Interviewee: She'd hit you two or three--Interviewee 2: When mother started in, that was it. Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: [1:24:00] Coignet: Are they still there? Dad'd hit you two or three, "Hush!, Hush! Hush!" [all laugh] Mother, she got hold of you, you knew she'd been there. Did you know any blacks and whites who married or lived together back in those days? Um-hm. Yeah, there was a white man and a black woman lived two streets over. They lived there long as I can remember.36Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee:No, they both dead. Uh-huh. How did the black community feel about that? They accepted it, but I don't know--they never did have any trouble by it. Do you remember what their name was--what they man's name was that lived there?Interviewee 2: [inaudible] Where, in Kentucky? Interviewee: No, right down here on--Interviewee 2: [inaudible] Interviewee: [1:25:00] Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: [1:26:00] Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Where were you married? Hamilton, Ohio. Hamilton? How did they white community feel about this? They never did bother. Never did bother. Uh-uh, never did bother them. They lived there all their life. I mean, long as I can remember. Did many of your relatives live nearby or were they far away? I never heard of any of their relatives. They must have been away somewhere. I never heard of anybody that was in relation to them. What about your relatives? Did your relatives live near you? Yeah they, most of them lived five blocks `cause that's where--I was raised over there. After I moved down in this neighborhood, why-- Oh, the next street, and then the next street over they lived down in that hollow down there in--oh, I don't remember.37Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee:Um-hm. And how did you meet your wife? Well, I had been away working, and I came home Christmas and they had a party at [inaudible] place. I met her there. That was Christmas, the twenty-second of May we was married. [all laugh]Interviewee 2: Didn't wait too long, did he? Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: [1:27:00] Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: [1:28:00] Interviewee: Well, never was much divorce in our family. I don't know--well, one of my cousins that my mother raised, she got a divorce after they moved out in California. But other than that I don't--I guess my sister got a divorce from her first husband. She remarried? Um-hm. Well, her second wife--husband, they lived a together a long time. He died before she did. And where was his? Calvary, he married us--no, wait a minute. Whoa, no, no. I married in Hamilton. Oh, okay. `Cause I--I tried to get that in there but it didn't happen that way, [laughs] so I had to tell a lie about my age. How old were you? Twenty, but in Ohio you had to be twenty-one with consent from your parents, so I was twenty-one. How did the people in your family feel about divorce? Married twenty-second of May. Do you remember who married you? Reverend Thomas--yeah, Irving Thomas.Coignet: Interviewee:38[1:29:00] Coignet: Interviewee: When you were growing up, was there respect for the elderly? Yes, pretty much definitely `cause, you know, you call them mister and missus and if they wasn't mister and missus they was uncle and aunt. They might not even been any kin to you. Did most men stay with their families, or did they leave? Well, I think that most of them that I--we knew or come in contact with stayed with their families. `Course there are always some that don't, but most that we knew they made it out some way or another. But the men that left their families why would you say, what were some of the reasons they would leave.Coignet: Interviewee:Coignet: [1:30:00] Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee:Well, whole lot of reasons but usually it was some other woman or got infatuated with somebody else. Okay. What holidays were observed back in the days? Christmas was a big holiday. Christmas, New Years, and Easter were the very good big holiday. Oh, I guess you would say Fourth of July `cause everybody tried to have something going on the Fourth of July. Would you say they were celebrated a lot differently from the way they are now?Coignet: [1:31:00] Interviewee:I don't think they are, not a great deal, `cause usually all those holidays they get together and have something to eat. They always have a dinner somewhere, somebody's house, it's just practically about the same, seem to me why-- Were there many family reunions? Well, there were quite a few. Yeah, there were quite a few reunions. We usually tried to have a family reunion during the summer. It wasn't any particular holiday. We usually tried to have reunions.Coignet: Interviewee:[1:32:00] Coignet: At what age did most children leave home and start assuming responsibility for themselves?39Tape 2, side 1 ends; side 2 begins Coignet: Interviewee: Okay. When I came along they weren't marrying as young as these kids are now. Usually they wait until they was of age. Well, there were some states where you could marry earlier than you did in Indiana or Ohio. You had to be twenty-one without consent.[1:33:00] Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: [1:34:00] Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Had services every Sunday, and well, they usually had prayer meeting and maybe some kind of club meeting in the evenings during the week. So, did your family have devotionals? Yeah, they went quite often. My mother or my sister more than my dad `cause he'd work nights a lot of the time. So most children stayed home until they got married? Usually. How were children's names chosen? [laughs] I don't know. I really don't know about that. I was known for my grandfather. In the old days, did you and your family attend church? Yeah, that was a must. That was a must. And what church did you attend? Calvary. Calvary. And that's Baptist. Baptist, Calvary Baptist. Um-hm. How frequently did your church have services?40Coignet: Interviewee: [1:35:00]Tell us--tell me some of the things your church did for the community in the old days. Well, if anyone got destitute, why, they usually tried to take up a collection and give them something, you know.`Course they--I don't know whether they had a sick committee or not. I don't remember about anything like that. If they took up a collection, everybody tried to give a little something. Coignet: Interviewee: [1:36:00] They had programs for--well, most of them were for youth. Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: [1:37:00] Interviewee: Really they didn't fear--they didn't fear white people like you'da thought they were, `cause there were so many more white people than there are black people. I don't ever remember being afraid of the white people. They'd have `em--have these Klan rallies. I seen two thousand people down here in McCullough Park with Negroes pass right on through them and went on to where they were going. Didn't say nothing. They never bothered `em. How did you feel about the police? How did most black people feel about the police? Well they--they had respect for `em `cause they had to--they had three or four black police as long as I can remember. Was there any violence against blacks in your community? Not that I ever knew of any violence. They took a man out and worked him one night--Ku Klux did. What was he supposed to have done? Had a white woman. What would you say were the major fears of black people back in those days? Were there any programs for the youth? Yeah, there were youth programs but they were--NAACP was very active.Coignet: Interviewee:41[1:38:00] Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: What were there names, do you remember? Bill Simms, and--he was on there a long time. Oh, um-- Where were they assigned to work? Did they have any special--? No, they usually assign them south of the railroad that was--`course they came out here to park and all around. Their regular assignment was usually south of the railroad.[1:39:00] They usually had anywhere from four to six at all times, you know, from the time that they had black police. Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: [1:40:00] Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: It was usually pretty good. Charles Ogey [?], that was one of `em's name. What's the last name? Ogey [?]. Ogey [?]. Um-hm. He was kind of a bad one. He'd work them pictures. [both laugh]. Wonder they hadn't done something to him too. One of `em come down there and get smart he got that stick across the head. [laugh] Yeah. John Miller was another police. Elery? Miller? Why were they assigned south of the railroad? Most of the, oh--most of the crime was in that area. They had gambling houses and they had some other houses and all in that area. [traffic noise] What was the attitude towards black policemen?Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee:42Coignet: Interviewee: [1:41:00] Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee:Miller? Oh, Miller. Uh-huh.What were the major illegal activities in the black community? Gambling. Gambling. Uh-huh. And whiskey, huh? Yeah, gambling and whiskey. [both laugh] Were these illegal businesses owned by blacks or-- Some of them were, some of them weren't. Some of them were white. Some of them were owned by whites. Were there any that were owned by whites and run by blacks? Well, some of them were that way, you know, run by blacks, but they usually took care of their own. You know, blacks with their--within that business they was--they looking out for--[1:42:00] Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Did black people have pride in themselves in the old days? I really believe that they did, yeah. How did they feel about being colored? Well, in the--I don't know how they felt. According to my feelings, it wasn't nothing you could do about it. You were colored and made the best of it that you could. If you got along with white people, good. Didn't get along with them, you left them alone. How do you feel about being called black today?Coignet:43Interviewee:I don't mind it. I don't mind it. You are different, and for my part I don't mind it. But a lot of them resent being called black ,but I'd rather be called black than nigger.[1:43:00] Coignet: Interviewee: What do you prefer between being called, colored or Negro or black? I think I'd be just well off by being black `cause there's black and white because you call them white and they're not all white but you call them black and they're not all black. How do you feel about being called an Afro-American?Coignet: [1:44:00] Interviewee:That really doesn't have any meaning for me. It really doesn't have any meaning, really `cause there's so many black ones over there now that they're not recognized, South Africa especially. I don't understand why they can't get that thing straightened out over there either, `cause there's more black ones over there than there are white in both the South Africa and--what do they call it now?-- whatever they call it now.[1:45:00] In both of those countries there are two or three to one black people and they ruled by the white people. Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: [1:46:00] Coignet: What about The Black Star Press, have you ever heard of that newspaper? Have you ever heard of The Afro-American newspaper? `Course they had a paper here called Afro-American but it was run by Negroes here. I guess I don't know about South African-- No, I'm talking about here. Here? The Afro-American newspaper? Um-hm, well they had an Afro--it was printed in Pittsburgh I think.44Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet:Yeah, I've heard of that. That was on--I don't know where that--seem like it was Baltimore? What about The Chicago Defender, have you--? Yeah, I knew that. And the Journal and Guide, you hear about that one? Unh-uh. Nope? Unh-uh. Did you read the black newspapers? Yeah, I always took `em. Just in the last year or two that I haven't taken some of them. Indianapolis Recorder-- Which one?Interviewee: Indianapolis Recorder. See that was closest here--big newspaper here and we usually took the Recorder. [1:47:00] Coignet: Interviewee: How did you get it? They sent it to you by mail. Only last three or four years--Garrett's daughter come around and passed it, but she done--she has evidently quit that `cause she hasn't been here for several months. And I always took it from her. What was her name? Oh-- Wait, what did you say her name was, Garrett? Yeah. Garrett. Um-hm. Hubert Garrett's daughter.Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: [1:48:00]45Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee:Oh, okay. In the old days, did people talk about Africa in the old days? Yeah, some of them did, but very few knew what they was talking about either really. What kind of things did they say about Africa? Well, they didn't have a clear idea of what it really meant. Alex Ellasi [?] he, you know, come to be, but they didn't want people to know what he really was and what he stood for. Were many Negroes angry or ashamed about Africa? Yeah, I think there was quite a few of them, ashamed at what happened there.Coignet: Interviewee: [1:49:00]Pause in recording Coignet: Did you, um--Did you ever--Pause in recording Coignet: Interviewee: Did you ever think about Africa as a homeland? A homeland? No, I didn't have--I never had any pipe dreams [both laugh] about going over there, trying to straighten them people out but it would have been-- `course at one time they had a colony that went from here to Africa. They went on a rubber plantation, Goodyear, I guess.[1:50:00] I don't remember just all about it, but there were a good many people from here who went over there but they never could make a go of it some way or another. Coignet: Interviewee: [1:51:00] Coignet: Do you think it's better than in the old days, or not as much pride as in the old days? Do you think that black people have pride today? Yeah, they have a certain amount of pride. I don't think they have the pride that they should have but it's been a difficult thing for awhile.46Interviewee:`Course, me, it don't seem like they have as much pride as they did, `cause if they had got together and got arms and things that they can get now, I believe in the old days they would have taken over a lot of this. I don't know, but that's what I believ. Course they--they can get the arms, they can buy the arms and things like that. South Africa, they were gold--lot of gold there and they know it there too.[1:52:00] They trying to keep control of it, but if they had pride they'd go in there and kick them out of there and take that gold for themselves. Then go together and make something big out of it. Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: [1:53:00] Interviewee: Well, white man have the money and black money is trying to get it and white man had sense enough to whenever a black man got up in business and got up very high they'd put a stumbling block in his route. They'd put something in your head [laughs] In the past, do you think that young people were ashamed of their race? Well, I'm quite sure that they were. Do you think this is so today? Not as much as it was thirty years ago, I don't think. In the past, how did black people feel about working for other black people? Well, some of them didn't like it too much, here in the United States, but other places seemed like they got along all right. Would you say that people here preferred to work for white people? Yeah, seems that way to me. Why do you--Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: [1:54:00]`Cause they're not even trying to anything with what they got. There's a whole lot of business, black business, right here in the United States and all they thinking about is selling dope or to make money. The only thing they think about is selling dope and things like that. Coignet: In the past, how did most people feel about fair-skinned blacks?47Interviewee: [1:55:00]Well, they were lot of people at the--oh, I'd say thirty forty years ago that felt the difference.They felt like the light-skinned blacks were trying to take advantage of them, you know, and they didn't like it very well. Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: [1:56:00] Well, I just don't know how to answer that because some of them don't like the light ones and then there's some of them that intermarried, you know. Well, you see a lot of it on television, a lot of half-white people on television that everybody seems to look up to `em all right. And they get along, but I don't understand it. Coignet: Interviewee: [1:57:00] Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: [1:58:00] Um-hm. [Interviewee laughs] Did you ever have any black dolls or any black soldiers? Did your sister ever have any black dolls? They never allowed me to have but one doll, but never had any black soldiers, you know, toys that were black. All the toys you got were white. What kind of toys did you have? I had a trains mostly. That was my big thing that I liked, was the trains. In the old days, what kind of toys did you play with? Toys? Were fair-skinned blacks usually better off or worse off then other blacks? They usually were better off, `cause a lot of them had a chance to get a little education by being light and that meant a big difference. So you'd say they had better jobs, better homes? Um-hm. Do you think it's the same way today? Well, I don't think they're usually--48Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet:[1:59:00]Did you know about or did you ever see any black actors or singers, entertainers? Yeah, they used to come here. Really. Uh-huh. Where? At the--[door opens] there was a theatre there at Mulberry and--let's see, Mulberry and Adams. Adams and Mulberry, there was a-- Do you remember any of the entertainers who came?Interviewee:Um-hm. They used to come over here and play on Sundays. If they was in Indianapolis, they'd come over here--Wysor Grand Theater there. They'd come over here and play on Sundays. And be here sometime during the season, you know-- Do you remember who the famous entertainers were--black entertainers? That's what I'm trying to get straightened out in my mind.Coignet: Interviewee: [2:00:00]They got a lot of them from over in Indianapolis, they'd come over on Sundays and go up to Wysor Grand or almost any of the big ones you could name. Coignet: Interviewee: [both laugh] You remember seeing any black movies? No, not when I--I don't think [door shuts] I saw any black movies when I was going to movies there weren't very many black movies but--oh, if I could `call a lot of them, you'd remember. I want to say Bojangles, but it wasn't him, it was--[2:01:00] Tape 2 ends; tape 3 begins Interviewee: Coignet: Big movie stars. I mean, they weren't movie stars then they were people in the theatre. In the past, how did men and women beautify themselves? What kind of hairstyles did they wear? 49Interviewee: [2:02:00]Well, the hairstyles were taken a good bit from the white man, `cause all the colored women had their hair straightened.The straighter they got it, why, the better they liked it. Up until just recently, now, the frizzier they get it the better they like it. [laughs] White women go and get their hair fixed now, you know, frizzy. [knock at door] Pause in recording Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: [2:03:00] Did you ever um--How do you feel about black baby dolls? Interviewee: Well, they should have been somebody that kept the likes of them, you know. They would probably have made some money if they'd kept their eyes on them and put them out and people would have--I imagine white people would have gone for it, A lot of it as a novelty but they never-- How do you feel about the new hairstyles? Well, I guess it's all right, `cause I don't have to worry about it. [both laugh] Do you like the bush hairstyles and the corn rows? No, I don't like any of them. No, bush? Yeah, them great big things all standing all over their head. You don't like those?Pause in recording Coignet: Interviewee: [2:04:00] I don't know why, but they--even if they don't live with them, why they having babies by `em and all that, I just don't understand it. `Course it's--I guess it's Do you think most black people want to live, work, and go to school with whites? I really don't know the answer to that, `cause I--you see, a lot of these white women nowadays they just sweeping the Negroes name.50turned around, really, from what it was in slavery. White men took the Negro women in slavery and now the white women are taking the colored man. [laughs] [2:05:00] Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: Why do you think this--do you have any ideas on that? No, I don't have the slightest idea of why it is. How do you think most white people feel about black people today? They still have that hatred in their heart, I believe. `Course there isn't a whole lot that they can do about it the way things are now, but deep down in their heart they still have that hatred in there. How do you think most white people feel about you, personally?Coignet: [2:06:00] Interviewee:Well, it's hard to say, I'm--I can get along with most anybody, white or black people, `cause I adjust to it, really. What do you call it, Homemakers Association. There's five or six of them that come here every week. They don't have to come here--they just. I don't know, there's something that they seem to enjoy coming here and sitting down and talking. Oh, they come here? Uh-huh. Homemakers? Uh-huh.Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: [2:07:00]And I've had Homemakers ever since they've been organized, come in one place or another, and they always do a good job, but now it just look like they flock in here. [laughs] Sign my name, I don't know whether they get paid for it or not. `Course I do--I know they get paid, but I don't know why it is that they come in and sign my name `cause--let me see, there's one, two, three, four, five--I think there's about six of `em been here already this week. Coignet: [2:08:00] And these are--these are whites?51Interviewee:Yeah. I don't think there's--I don't think there's but one colored in that Homemakers there. She came from my house once, down on Turner Street, but I think she's still with him `cause I asked about her the other day. But she don't come. How do you feel about yourself and your life and what you have been able to accomplish? Not much. I haven't been able to accomplish, not much at all. If I had had an education, I probably would have accomplished something.Coignet: Interviewee: [2:09:00]It just so happened that way, that's all, you had nothing to do about it. Coignet: Interviewee: How do you feel about America? The past, the present, and the future? Well, too late now for [laughs] the future, but I don't think I'd be around, you know, if I was younger without being married. I couldn't take it without being married. I'd have to go back a few years.[2:10:00] Coignet: Interviewee: Coignet: Interviewee: But how do you feel about America? America, where it's going? Just where it's been, where it is today, and where it's going? I don't know much about that either `cause there's no telling where it's going, but as I see it, when they get ready to drop that atomic bomb and Russia and the United States drop what they've got at the same time, I think that's the end of this. I think--I really believe that's the end of this world as we know it.[2:11:00] `Course a lot of these preachers are preaching that right now, but I don't know. I haven't got a lot of faith in some of these preachers I hear over the television. They all want instant rich. [laughs] Coignet: Remember last time I asked you if you had any old pictures or old letters or newspaper clippings? And you'd said you would take a look around and see if you had any? Yeah, but I haven't. There's some things back there in that back room. I'm going to have to take out of there. I'll do it--Interviewee:52[2:11:55] End of recording53
  • Middletown Digital Oral History Collections
  • Black Middletown Project Collection
  • BMP_018
  • R21-018A and R21-018B and R21-018C
Source
  • Ball State University Libraries, Archives and Special Collections
Terms of Use
  • To order a copy, inquire about permissions, or for information about prices, contact Archives and Special Collections, Ball State University Libraries at (765) 285-5078 or via email at jstraw@bsu.edu,Copyright 2007. Ball State University, Routledge M. Dennis, Vivian V. Gordon, Black Middletown Project. All rights reserved.
Language
  • English
Contributed by
OAIster

Get this edition

  • Set up My libraries

    How do I set up "My libraries"?

    In order to set up a list of libraries that you have access to, you must first login or sign up. Then set up a personal list of libraries from your profile page by clicking on your user name at the top right of any screen.

  • All (1)
  • Unknown (1)
None of your libraries hold this item.
None of your libraries hold this item.
None of your libraries hold this item.
None of your libraries hold this item.
None of your libraries hold this item.
None of your libraries hold this item.
None of your libraries hold this item.
None of your libraries hold this item.

User activity


e.g. test cricket, Perth (WA), "Parkes, Henry"

Separate different tags with a comma. To include a comma in your tag, surround the tag with double quotes.

Be the first to add a tag for this edition

Be the first to add this to a list

Comments and reviews

What are comments? Add a comment

No user comments or reviews for this version

Add a comment