1973, 2007, English, Article, Sound, Interview, lecture, talk edition: Findley, Clem (Audio Interview and Transcript) Goodall, Hurley C.; Findley, Clem

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Findley, Clem (Audio Interview and Transcript)
 
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  • 01:07:35, Audio Cassette, Streaming Audio (WMA) , PDF, Hardware: Tascam 322 2-Head Dual Auto Reverse Audio Cassette Recorders, PreSonus FIREBOX 2x6 Fire Wire Recording System , Software: Sony SoundForge 8 Audio Editing/​Mastering Software, File Type: wav , Sample Rate: 44.1 kHz , Bit Depth: 16, Derivatives created: Cleaned wav (Wave X-Noise, Normalize, and ExpressFX Dynamics applied) , Access wma , Black Middletown only: Anonymous wma
  • Sound , Text
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  • 1973-05-17
  • 2007-02-26 - 2007-08-27
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  • English

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Title
  • Findley, Clem (Audio Interview and Transcript)
Author
  • Goodall, Hurley C.
  • Findley, Clem
Published
  • 1973-05-17
  • 2007-02-26 - 2007-08-27
Physical Description
  • 01:07:35, Audio Cassette, Streaming Audio (WMA) , PDF, Hardware: Tascam 322 2-Head Dual Auto Reverse Audio Cassette Recorders, PreSonus FIREBOX 2x6 Fire Wire Recording System , Software: Sony SoundForge 8 Audio Editing/​Mastering Software, File Type: wav , Sample Rate: 44.1 kHz , Bit Depth: 16, Derivatives created: Cleaned wav (Wave X-Noise, Normalize, and ExpressFX Dynamics applied) , Access wma , Black Middletown only: Anonymous wma
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  • Muncie, Indiana
  • Black Muncie History Project MSS 33/​R 5 Interviewer: Hurley Goodall Interviewee: Clem Findley Date of Interview: 05/​17/​1973 Goodall: Study of the history of the Negro in Muncie and this is being recorded on February 1, 1972. Mr. Findley, could you tell me when you first came to Muncie? October 17, 1905. Ninteen aught-six. Do you remember--Where did you come from? Do you remember where you came from, where your family came from? From Pauling, Ohio. Pauling, Ohio--Pauling, Ohio. Do you know why your parents came to Muncie? Well, we had my dad and mother had friends here. A couple here they were just like brother and sister the two families just like brother and sister. Mr. and Mrs. Ike Powell was their name. And he came out here first and then he kept after my dad to come.Findley: Goodall: Findley: Goodall: Findley:[1:00] Finally, one fall I don't know how long before that that Mr. Powell came out here but later on he kept on after my dad to come out here so my dad came here and he liked it. So he came back home, now this is the way my dad and mother told me about it, I remember about it but of course I wasn't in on the conversation what they said to Mr. and Mrs. Powell or anything like that. They just--they told me and what little bit I remember about it and he decided to come out here because of he thought it was better than Pauling. And in Pauling I can remember that well he was afraid of this town. [2:00]1My dad and my brother were always getting in trouble down there and that's the reason why he really wanted to get away. But of course as I said this was to him was a better place to live. So one Sunday morning we, my dad and my mother and sister and grandfather, we all got on the wagon and started for Muncie and we drove to Fort Wayne the first day it was on a Sunday morning, we drove to Fort Wayne the first day. We stated there with my uncle. Sunday night and Monday until after the street cars quit running in Fort Wayne, because the horses had never seen street cars and they were afraid and we waited till after the street cars stopped running so they didn't have so much trouble with them. [3:00] And then on Monday night we left there and drove this side of well now I can't say just where it was, but I think it was this side of Bluffton. No, that's too far. But anyhow we drove until Monday night I mean Tuesday night and then we stopped at an old school house and my dad took the hay off of the wagon and put it in a coal house, school I mean a wood house because they burned wood at that time and he put that in this hay in the wood house and my dad and my mother, I mean my grandfather and my mother and my sister and I we slept on that hay on blankets that night. And my dad slept on the wagon with the horses. [4:00] Then the next day we drove to about Montpelier I guess it was and from there we, there we stopped overnight again. I don't remember that stop really. All I remember is where we stopped at this school house. And then the next day we got into Muncie which was October the seventeenth and we went to Mr. and Mrs. Powell's home. They lived out East Jackson Street near the country club at that time. The house is still standing out there. They lived in a log house. And we stayed there for oh, I guess, well our furniture was shipped in a boxcar and after our furniture got here we went to housekeeping, or they did at eleven, no it was called it was on the corner of Fifth Street and D Street which now is Brady and Russey. [5:00] And we lived there just one month and my grandfather died while he was there that one month he died. And we moved from there out into what they called Broyleston [?]. Goodall: Findley: Where's that at? That's just east of the wire mill out there. The houses that look almost alike out there that's what they called Broyleston [?] at that time and it2was because Jim Broyles [?] built all those houses out there during the gas boom and they called it Broyleston [?]. [6:00] We lived in a house out there which the barn wasn't much good and my dad always was crazy about his horses so he wanted a better barn. And there was a double house on Jackson Street that was on Leland Avenue but their barn was on Jackson Street so we moved over in this double house so he could have a better barn for his horses. And we lived there, that was in 1905, we lived there until well I left and went to the Army in 1917, and they were still living there when I came back in 1919. Goodall: [7:00] Findley: Yes, I went--I started in school in January of 1906 at the Longfellow School as we know now, that was the year that the Longfellow School was built--[woman's voice, inaudible] That's okay. You know what I'm doing. Okay. --and this school up here was built. I, we went to school up there my sister and I and I what they called graduated at that time from the eight grade up there and they gave diplomas then and had commencement exercises just the same as they do in high school and college now. Our commencement exercises was at the Wysor Grand, the old Wysor Grand Theater. Do you remember you know you said you came here, did you same you-- you came here from your grandparents were here? No, my granddad came with us. Well now who was that that lived down by the country club? Did you go to school in Muncie?Goodall: Findley:Goodall: Findley: Goodall: [8:00] Findley:It was Ike Powell. Isaac Powell. He and his wife were then my father and mother were just like brother and sisters and it was Stan Powell's father and mother. Oh, yeah.Goodall:3Findley:They were just friends we lived out there in the country with them and we, they were always very close and after Ike Powell give out here as I said they he called my dad and mother or my dad rather of course my mother was just with my dad and he just--[woman's voice, inaudible] How many other, you know Negro families were here, you know when you came, do you know any that were here? Well I know that Schuyler and Odie Goings, that's Mabel Goings, Mabel Peelle's father and mother, they were here, I knew them.Goodall: Findley: [9:00]And speaker, Ambrose Speaker and his wife, they were here. And I don't remember whether the Alexanders--Alexanders were here then too, I don't remember Mr. and Mrs. Alexander's, Mr. Alexander's first name he and his boys and he had one girl and I don't remember her name. [woman's voice, inaudible] Goodall: You don't have to whisper--no I mean see this is just what we want is information and I told Mr. Clem that what they plan to do is put these tapes in archives out there and any students you know in the future that want to study on it.Mrs. Findley: In 1905 when Clem came here there were a lot of Negroes here then. Findley: [10:00] Goodall: Finley: Goodall: Did you ever hear anybody say when the first ones came or anything like that? No. Do you have any idea? We didn't know them. See I didn't know them because I was just a kid.Mrs. Findley: I think the Cottmans were about the first Negro family here. Cottman, he was a tailor. Because they were here when my father and mother came here. There were a lot of people here when they came here. They came late. Findley: Yeah, 1905 was when we came. There were a lot of Negroes here but I didn't know them `cause I was just a kid. When I lived out there in Broyleston [?] with those Hungarians and Polish people and the only time4I got to be with Negro children was when I went to school up here because I just didn't, well it was too far to walk from Broyleston [?] up over here. Goodall: Did you know, did most Negroes live in White--did they all live around town then, or did they just live you know in certain areas like most of them do now?[11:00] Mrs. Findley: Well, not necessarily, people lived everywhere when we came to Muncie uptown on Jackson Street and Johnson her father, he was a cook uptown and they lived all the way up on Adams Street and Grants lived on Jackson Street. They lived all over Muncie. My father of course we didn't--we weren't here early when a lot of people were but `cause a lot of people lived here when we came to Muncie, colored people, and he had a blacksmith shop. Did you have that? Goodall: Mrs. Williams was telling me about it but I want to know more about it. Where it was located at?Mrs. Findley: It was located at East, I mean on--what's that street? Hampton Street there between the just about where that Gaybol Store House is on the railroad right there down from the Catholic church, you know where. [12:00] Findley: Goodall: Where the Delaware Trucking Company used to be. What was it called?Mrs. Findley: The Old Kentucky Shoeing Shop--Old Kentucky Shoeing Shop and he and Mr. Stokes who was a former policeman, they were in partnership there in the shop. Findley: That wasn't the Stokes that was a barber, was it?Mrs. Findley: No, that was Stokes who was a policeman, May Stoke's father. And then later he moved up on the corner of Gilbert and Jefferson Streets and he had a wagon he and Mr. Bryant, that was a white man, they had that business together and they fixed wagons and shod horses and had a much larger shop and did a much bigger business. Goodall: Well see we get this information and then we can look it up you know somewhere like the courthouse and different places like that and that's why we try to get as many names and some idea where it was at so they can look back in old city directories and different things like that to really5pin it down, times and dates try to get it as accurate as you can I know there will be some mistakes. [13:00] Mrs. Findley: You want to know about the dates we came here? Goodall: Yes.Mrs. Findley: We came here from Louisville, Kentucky during the gas boom, that's when he moved our family to Muncie. Findley: Goodall: That's when we came here too. What was life like you know then for a Negro family, you know, what did they do, you know, where did they go?Mrs. Findley: Well they had the churches and just made their own way. Back there then there weren't many public places to go to. Just the community everybody went any place they wanted to go and the picture shows. Church was the main thing in those days. That was our main meeting place, was the church. Of course they had their lodges. [14:00] Goodall: What about Negro doctors?Mrs. Findley: Well, Dr. Cooper was a doctor here then. Findley: Goodall: I'd forgotten about him. Do you know where he was located at? Can you remember?Mrs. Findley: Well they lived out on Martin Street out near the college out there. And I don't remember whether he had an office uptown. He must have had an office downtown. Findley: I don't even remember his office.Mrs. Findley: The Coopers and Gilmores and the [inaudible]. There were about three or four families out here on Martin Street. Findley: Sawyers.Mrs. Findley: And the Sawyers, yes. James Sawyers. Where was it he did in the earlier days, Mr. Sawyers.6Findley:Didn't he work at the Delaware Motel, I just don't remember.Mrs. Findley: I can't remember what he did. And then there was a Robert [inaudible], had a shoe shine shop on Walnut Street and he--he employed about six different boys. [15:00] I was just looking at that picture today. Clem, where is that picture? Findley: You had it right there.Mrs. Findley: [inaudible] Findley: Goodall: Did you put it down there--[inaudible] The more I find out the more fascinated I get with the whole thing. I find out a lot of things that I didn't have any idea about.Mrs. Findley: Robert [inaudible], he moved to Cleveland and he's become a wealthy man, he just died last, about six years ago, I think. He was a Lutherist brother. Goodall: I know--I didn't know about the brother.Mrs. Findley: He was a businessman in Cleveland and he was always in business here. He had a shoe shine shop that I think had five or six boys and each had a foot, you know a stand, a chair. [16:00] Findley: I get it for you. What are you looking for? That picture? It isn't here anymore. You put it back here in the corner.Mrs. Findley? What corner? [inaudible] My brother Randolph Wingfield too was in the shop with my father. And when he left this shop he went to New Castle and at one time was the fastest in Henry County. Mr. Warner once told me that, my father always shod his horses, and he said he never had to fix a horses shoe the second time, and he never had to do that again. So that was quite a thing. Goodall: [17:00] What about lawyers. Were there any lawyers here back in those days?7Mrs. Findley: Well I don't know of any lawyers, not that far back. I was just trying to think Alexander, he wasn't. Who was that young man? Findley: Brawley.Mrs. Findley: Brawley, yes. Findley: But that was much later, that wasn't back in that time.Mrs. Findley: I can't remember anybody earlier than that. There was Brawley and Alexander and Al Burton now he had a saloon, you know, down on South Walnut Street. Goodall: No, I don't remember.Mrs. Findley: That was way before your time. Findley: He was he worked for Hitchcock many, many years but he had his own private business down on South Walnut Street, he had a saloon down there. And then Pat Keller, you know, had a hotel down there on South Walnut Street. It was just a [inaudible]. I'm finding that out. Can you tell me anything about the hotel, I mean?Findley: Goodall: [18:00]Mrs. Findley: It was just a frame hotel. There were a lot of fellows that worked for the you know that had horses in those days, fine horses and carriages. Like Frank Estes, he worked for the A. L. Johnson's for years. Frank Estes, he worked for A. L. Johnson and then Mr. Asterbrook for J. E. Johnson. Findley: Goodall: And Al Lampkins? What did Johnson do?Mrs. Findley: They had Warner Gear. [19:00] And Al Lampkins, he was a coachman for W. E. Hitchcock, he was there for--worked there. Goodall: What was Hitchcock?8Mrs. Findley: Hitchcock was in Warner Gear, too. He was an industrialist. And-- Goodall: What about other businesses down on Walnut Street? I've heard there were several colored business places.Mrs. Findley: Colored business places? Goodall: Findley: Yes businessman that had, let's see, somebody had a restaurant up there on-- Oh, that was Al, what was that man that had--Mrs. Findley: That was over on High Street. [20:00] Findley: But they had one before they had that didn't they have one up on Howard and Walnut? That club? What was his name? His wife was a nice little--Mrs. Findley: Hammonds has the one on North High Street. Findely: That's who I'm thinking about.Mrs. Findley: And then, of course, years ago before my time, James Johnson--first husband, his grandfather had a restaurant there on Walnut Street, but I don't know nothing about it to tell you about it. Findley: Goodall: The R&​J Restaurant there on Mulberry. They all had those restaurants uptown what happened? You know?Mrs. Findley: Well, they just got old and nobody came along and took it up. Goodall: There wouldn't anything happened that did they just stop renting to Negroes?Mrs. Findley: Oh no, we never had any trouble like that in Muncie in those days. No, I just think when I read about all this trouble that they have with these kids and everything. We went to school with kids just like brothers and sisters and the girl that lived in this house, Mary Adams, we were good friends and we'd come here and play in the yard after school, when we should have been home, but we'd take off once in a while, and play around before we went home. [21:00]9Findley:We didn't have any of the trouble like they--have now of any racial trouble.Mrs. Findley: No. Findley: We just went along.Mrs. Findley: We just got along. Findley: Goodall: We did. Now and then there would be a fight but that was just a fist fight like kids always have, but there wasn't any racial trouble. Did any Negroes hold any elective offices or anything back in those days that you know about? Or heard about it?Mrs. Findley: I don't remember, do you? Findley: No, I don't.Mrs. Findley: Mr. Benson had his barber shop down here too and that was quite an institution, `cause he did a big business there. I guess you know about him, don't you? [22:00] Goodall: Well, you know, I've heard different ones, I've talked to Mrs. Williams and Mr. Bill Turner and I talked to Miss Wooldridge, Hazel Taylor.Mrs. Findley: Now Lucille knows a whole lot about some colored people that used to live back over in here, across from the park. I can just barely remember them, but she knew them better than I did. Findley: Goodall: Mr. Young had all that property out here. You know where the Spencer's lived. I kind of caught her by surprised. I should have called first before I come. Seems like every time I do that I don't get anything done. I just go around and knock on doors. See if they be nice enough to talk to me. I don't make anybody mad.Mrs. Findley: There are a lot of things that Mr. Duvall, you know, he used to run that bus. [23:00]10He was probably the first one in Muncie that had a bus a public bus that-- that ran in town. I think he rode to town and picked up passengers didn't he? Have you heard about that? Goodall: Well just briefly, go ahead and tell me.Mrs. Findley: Well I don't know much about it, I don't remember the details. You know Mr. Duvall down here, Anna--father. Findley: Don't remember about it.Mrs. Findley: Don't you remember years ago he used to sort of had sort of, it seems to me like he taxied with his car for a while and then he got this bus, but I don't remember enough about it to tell you about it-- Findley: I don't remember him.Mrs. Findley: --an intelligent account of it. But Lucille would remember. Have you talked to her about all of that? Goodall: [24:00] So we're trying to get as much as we can and put all the pieces together. And see what comes out. Mrs. Findley: And, of course, your father had a team thing, didn't he? Findley: He teamed, he hauled stone. Yeah, I talked to her. I just left her house and came here. She sent me to talk to you. Yeah, she gave me a lot of but she couldn't remember.Mrs. Findley: And Mr.--I suppose Hazel told you about, he was a horse trader, he would trade horses you know and spot old plugs up and sell them. And then one time they had this fine stallion, he was a fine horse. He used him for studding, I think. I don't know maybe they don't want that part told, I don't know. Findley: Too bad now.Mrs. Findley: It was a nice business and it's nice to know that people. [25:00] And Old Man Hunt, he used to fix pumps and he had a quite a pump business, I can't remember his first name though.11Goodall:Well, maybe we can find out.Mrs. Findley: He lived over on Sixth Street. That's where he lived when he died. He had a piece of property over there, but he had a lucrative business in the pump business back in those days. And let's see what else can I tell you? Findley: I remember this very distinctly that when we lived out there in Broyleston [?] on Jackson Street out that way was a corduroy road. Do you know what I'm talking about? Uh-huh. It's a log road, it was made of logs and then covered over and they done had to dig all that up to put the street in and that during the time that the Interstate Automobile was made here in Muncie and they used to bring those just the chassis of the car, drivers road them out there and all those chuckholes and everything to test them out.Goodall: Findley:[26:00] My brother came from Fort Wayne here and he helped, he was what they called a rooter, it was just like a plow except on the front end was just a long piece of steel, it was sharp on the end and they had four horses pulling it and my brother was the man riding it. My brother guide them and help dig up those logs of the street, and I remember how tired he was the first evening--how tired he was when he came in the house. And they just plowed up all those logs and then cleaned it all out and then started at the bottom with solid dirt and came up with it, that's the way Jackson Street was made. I helped build a lot of these streets here in Muncie with my dad's team. [27:00] Jackson Street, Main Street, a lot of those streets, I drove my dad's team when we plowed them up and [inaudible]. Goodall: Findley: They were all that kind of corduroy roads. Yeah, all of Jackson Street was that corduroy road on out to Wilson after that I just don't remember what kind of road was out there.Mrs. Findley: Bare road. It used to be. Findley: But this was a corduroy road out to Wilson Road, I remember that.12Mrs. Findley: And Lazarus Fletcher, I think was, he was the first colored mail carrier that I know of. And after, he became a carrier long time. Lazarus Fletcher's grandfather, yes. Goodall: That's the first I heard that. `Cause I thought Frank Baker was the first.Mrs. Findley: Oh no. Findley: Eric Valentine was before he--Mrs. Findley: Lazarus Fletcher was the first that I remember and oh that's been years and ago, because he was one of my father's best friends. [28:00] He and then Harry Valentine and I can't remember anybody else. Goodall: What about policeman, do you remember who the first Negro policeman?Mrs. Findley: This was the Stokes that I told you, I can't think of his first name. Goodall: Stokes, oh he was a Negro I thought he was white.Mrs. Findley: No, he was in business with my father, but he was colored. Findley: Then there was Pete Scott.Mrs. Findley: Oh, there was a lot after that some of the later people can tell you about that. Goodall: Findley: Goodall: Findley: Goodall: Well, maybe we can find their records. Grovell Peelle can tell you a lot about the policeman. Who can? Grovell Peelle. Yeah, I talked to him he may have told me I don't remember.Mrs. Findley: And there was Chas O'Geese, he was one but as you say you can find them in the records. [29:00]13Goodall:Yeah, but we have to know who we're looking for the records won't tell us whether they were colored or white, but if we can get their names then we can look and find out when they went on, and whatever else we can about them. But we have to have some idea of what we're looking for.Mrs. Findley: I was just trying to think who I know that would have a lot more information. A lot of the old folks are gone. Goodall: I know they're going fast.Mrs. Findley: That's the trouble when you don't keep up with things and just don't know. Oh, I think of the valuable things that we let pass and didn't keep a record of you know it's a terrible thing not to keep records. These kids ought to gain by it. [30:00] Goodall: Yeah, I hope so but still I think it's important for, I know it's been important for me, to know that Negroes have been in these businesses and you know and all things that they have done and all because a lot of the younger people particularly the ones that are even younger than I am feel like you know Negroes don't do anything--Mrs. Findley: That's right. Goodall: --and they've been told that.Mrs. Findley: And if they could come along and do half as much as the older people did. Goodall: But if they don't know and don't have that to build on then they don't have any confidence that they can do things. So that's the reason it's important for them to know--Mrs. Findley: That's right. Goodall: --what the older generation has done and accomplished and then they will have something to build on and something to emulate.Mrs. Findley: And in connection with my father's blacksmith shop, he down where, you know where Georgia lives, well across the street you know we owned that house too. The house that we lived in while my father Sam Lewis' house up on the hill there, you know, that was our old homestead, where the Kroons boy lives there, not Kroons, he's dead. [31:00]14Goodall:Bass girl. The girl, Doreen Parish.Mrs. Findley: Parish, yes. Well that was our homestead, and when then we owned that little house down there across the street from Georgia where next to Burgess house south of Burgess house and that lot south of the house, my father had a hog pen clear from one street down to the alley and he just raised hogs. And he had access to the garbage, you know, from the hotels and things and every morning he and brother and Ike Meyers would go and pick up this garbage and they didn't need to anything else to feed the hogs. [32:00] Course he'd sell hogs and it was a pretty lucrative business at that time. And um-- Goodall: Do you remember very much about Reverend Johnson?Mrs. Findley: No, I don't know much about Reverend Johnson. Goodall: When he was here?Mrs. Findley: Of course, I knew him well, but I don't know when he came or anything. Lucille should have known quite a bit about that. Goodall: Well, she mentioned some but she couldn't remember. Well, like I was asking about somebody said something about that he had an embalming method that would keep people for an indefinite period.Mrs. Findley: Well he claimed to have had it, but you just didn't know any more than what he said about it, you know, but you know he could know keep them a long time. You know that boy he had [inaudible] Lord, he just kept him and kept him and kept him. [33:00] Goodall: That's what they told me. What was the boy's name?Mrs. Findley: I don't know. It happened [inaudible] his car turned over and killed the boy and broke Julia's neck. Do you remember when she wore that neck brace? You were too small. Goodall: Findley: I was too small to remember. I remember them vaguely them talking about Johnson's Funeral Home, but I can't remember him? Reverend Johnson.15Mrs. Findley: You can't? Well it don't seem like it was that long. How old are you? Goodall: Forty-four.Mrs. Findley: Are you, well you ought to remember Reverend Johnson. Goodall: I don't. We found some calendars. Mrs. Phillips had a calendar with him on it and that was in 1933 see so I would have only been six years old then.Mrs. Findley: Uh-huh. Well shoot, I can remember when I came to Muncie I was just about three years old but I can remember getting on that train and everything. Goodall: [34:00] Mrs. Findley: You ought to remember that far back. Goodall: I don't. I don't remember. I can't remember what he looked like. Like I say I can remember them saying something about Johnson Funeral Home, but I can't remember what the man looked like. I remember it was up there on Highland where it was. But I can't. I can't put him in mind. Well, maybe that was a new experience.Mrs. Findley: Well maybe you didn't go out much then-- Hurley: Probably.Mrs. Findley: Because you were old enough to remember. Goodall: I probably didn't, I don't remember. Surely I would have gotten up there, I remember a few years later when the Slayton's Band used to practice up there, I remember that. [laughter] You remember the Wire Mill Band do you? No.Findley: Goodall:Mrs. Findley: You're the oldest boy, aren't you? Goodall: [35:00] No, second, Robert was the oldest. I think Robert and John were about the same age but I was a couple years younger than they were.16Findley: Goodall:I tell you about an old man around here I know him, he's been dead for a good while but Wick Adams, do you know him? Did you know him? I remember him vaguely and you know the only other thing I know about him, I was told that talking to the chief up at the fire station one day and they said that he was up there on the fire department years and years ago.Mrs. Findley: He was. Goodall: --and used to feed horses up there. I'm going to get in that book and find--Mrs. Findley: He was a hustler, you know, I think he did. Findley: Goodall: Of course. They didn't know what he did.Mrs. Findley: Hustler. Goodall: Findley: But evidently he fed the horses. Hustler, honey, is the man--Mrs. Findley: Man who takes care of the horses. Findley: No, the hustler is the man that takes care of the engines.Mrs. Findley: The fire engines? Findley: Railroad engines.Mrs. Findley: Well, I didn't know that, well anyhow. Findley: Where was that man's name that took care of the engines on the C&​O down here for years?Mrs. Findley: Honey I don't remember. Findley: [36:00] Bill Somebody.17Mrs. Findley: I expect--I expect--I expect you remember him, he lived over in here some place, I think his wife's name was Cora and his daughter married one of those Boohers. She was a short woman. What was his name? Findley: I can't think of it.Mrs. Findley: He was a big man. Worked for C&​O for a long time. Sure you remember him. Findley: Fired up the engines.Mrs. Findley: Sitting down there in front of that little shanty. Now you ought to remember that if you're 40 years old-- Goodall: I don't.Mrs. Findley: You sure didn't get out and visit very far. [laughter] Findley: That's why the reason why I don't remember a lot of things around here because I lived out there in Broyleston [?] and went to school up here and after I go out of school I went to work in the factor and didn't socialize a whole lot just until I ran into my wife and she started taking me out. [inaudible, laughter][37:00] Mrs. Findley: Well, you know this, Whiteley used to be just underbrush and hazelnut bushes, of course, you don't remember that, that was before your time. But my mama used to raise turkeys and ducks and geese and anything you wanted, why she had up here in this yard, right up there on Fifth Street it's not Fifth Street anymore. Findley: Goodall: It's Russey now. Who were the most prominent Negro families then, whatever you want, you know? The ones that kind of stood out. I guess you named some of them.Mrs. Findley: Well the Wingsfields were, we were supposed to be-- Findley: Valentines.Mrs. Findley: --and the Valentines and Ivy's and Cottman's and the Range over in town, and--18Findley:The Findleys were well known, they weren't prominent but they were well known.Mrs. Findley: You come kind of late honey. You came the same year my father died. And my father died-- [38:00] Findley: Well, you'd only been here two years.Mrs. Findley: Who'd been here two years? Findley: You said you was only three years old when you came to Muncie?Mrs. Findley: Well, what's that got to do with when you came to Muncie? Findley: I came here in 1905.Mrs. Findley: I didn't say when I came to Muncie. I been shoot we've been in Muncie a long time when you came to Muncie. Findley: I thought you'd just been here a little while when we came to Muncie.Mrs. Findley: Oh mercy no. My father died in 1905 right after you came to Muncie and we'd been here years and years before that. Goodall: Findley: It couldn't have been years and years. No, it couldn't.Mrs. Findley: You don't have any idea how old I am, boy. Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed. He'd been here a long time before. Findley: You mean you'd been here a long time.Mrs. Findley: No, he brought me here. Findley: I thought you was talking about me.Mrs. Findley: I was talking about my father. We'd all been here. Goodall: [39:00] Mrs. Findley: What did you say? Can I ask where your family came from, when they came here?19Goodall:Where did your family come from?Mrs. Findley: Louisville, Kentucky. Goodall: They came from Louisville?Mrs. Findley: Yes, uh-huh. Little, Kentucky. Goodall: I found some of them comes from Ohio. I thought most of them would come from Kentucky but so far most of the people I've talked to haven't.Mrs. Findley: A lot of them came from Ohio. Goodall: That's strange, how did all those colored families get up in Ohio?Mrs. Findley: Well, a lot of those families came up from South Carolina to Ohio especially up into--places like that where there's white, colored people are, most of them came from south originally. Years and years back. Findley: Goodall: My mother was-- Through the underground railroad and some of those things that's why--Mrs. Findley: I imagine. Goodall: --they are along in there now?Mrs. Findley: I imagine. Findley: My mother came from Jamestown, Virginia.Mrs. Findley: My father was from Charleston, West Virginia and my mother was from Kentucky. [40:00] She was from Briarstown, Kentucky `cause she lived down there. Goodall: Findley: Goodall: Well, that's one thing that I've learned. I just almost assumed that most people, you know, colored came from the south. No. Really they didn't. They didn't. They didn't come from the south. They come from the south and went somewhere else and then came here.20Mrs. Findley: Um-hm, came here. Goodall: What about Negro newspapers or anything, do you remember any?Mrs. Findley: Vaguely. But I don't know much about it to tell you. They used to have little, they didn't have no daily papers. Goodall: You can't remember no names or anything that we might look for?Mrs. Findley: No, I couldn't tell you any. I just can't remember. Findley: Goodall: [41:00] Do you remember anything about that? Anything unusual that happened? Findley: I remember a meeting, a big meeting that they had down here in the park. And Negroes, of course were around where they could hear what was said at that meeting. And they talked about Negro stepped on the rubber trees for six thousand years and didn't have sense enough to make a pair of boots. I can remember them saying that. If my father was living he could tell you some things that we just don't know because-- What about the year when Klan was around?Mrs. Findley: About Africa. I just remember them the time we were so excited when they said they were coming down here from-- Findley: Marion.Mrs. Findley: Marion, you know. After that lynching. Who was that officer's name that brought the guns out. Findley: Fred Puckett.Mrs. Findley: Brought the guns out to us for protection. [42:00] Goodall: Findley: I found a lot of people thought a lot of Puckett. That's the first time I ever voted, ever scratched my ticket. I voted a Republican ticket up until time. For Fred Puckett I scratched my ticket that21time first time I voted Democrat. That's the first time I ever voted Democrat ticket. Mrs. Findley: I don't really, don't think they ever got hold of those. See, I'm not sure, they might have, but I really don't think they could have. Findley: Not with Fred Puckett here. They wouldn't have gone into the jail and got them, unless they killed him. I just believe that much in Fred Puckett. He and Benbow, he was the sheriff and Benbow was the deputy and they used to ride bicycles out hunting to find men, like they were looking for someone, they'd be on their bicycles and ride bicycles. They had good people back then.Goodall: [43:00] Findley:There were some good ones. You know here in Muncie when we first came here, there wasn't near the segregation, now there was some segregation I won't say that but there we couldn't go everyplace in the shows and down McCullough Park over here was segregated as I guess you heard about. And John Hampton old man John Hampton was the one that stopped the segregation down here in McCullough Park. And I was the one that asked him that Sunday afternoon a meeting down here at the lodge that if you're elected will you stop this segregation down here in the Park?Mrs. Findley: You and who else? Findley: Oh there was a gang of us down at the lodge down here it was a meeting.Mrs. Findley: Your club. Findley: No, it wasn't.Mrs. Findley: I thought they sent a committee down. Findley: No, they sent me Mrs. Turner. And she wanted our club to take lead of it. And that I told her she belonged to the NAACP and that she [inaudible].[44:00] She wasn't chairman, Jessie Pettiford was chairman. But that Sunday down here when I asked John Hampton, he told me right there before, the place was filled, that if he was elected and he was elected there hasn't been any segregation in McCullough Park since. That was old man John Hampton.22Mrs. Findley: You know Hurley, the thing about it is--about these youngsters. They don't really realize that we have gone through to get this far, because we've had all sorts of organizations and things. You know-- Goodall: They haven't had anybody to tell them. That's why what I was telling Mrs. Williams that you know, the young people can't know if there is no way, if there is no record of it and nobody to tell them. That's the reason, like I say, it's meant a whole lot to me since I've been working with this thing. To go around talking to people to find out what they have done.Mrs. Findley: And how we've blazed a trail for them. Because I'm telling you we've done a lot. [45:00] Goodall: Well I think that's important and I think it will mean I know it will mean a lot to them. I know it's meant a lot to me, you know, for them to know where they come from. They have a lot of things to be proud of. They don't have nothing to be ashamed of.Mrs. Findley: That's right, they don't. Goodall: But the only way they're going to know it is for someone to try to dig it out and get it out where they can find it.Mrs. Findley: Just like you would get quite a bit from NAACP records. Goodall: Findley: Goodall: Findley: Well, if we an ever run them down. That's the trouble. We can't find them, that's the thing. That's the trouble. They always want the mail organizations and yet they always want somebody else to go to the front for them. They won't stand up themselves.Mrs. Findley: I'm trying to think if Dr. Smith was the president for a long time. Frank Baker might give you some good information if you go to him. Goodall: [46:00] I plan to get over to talk to him. I'm going to talk to Mr. Knight, too.23Mrs. Findley: Well, he wouldn't know too much about the earliest part of Muncie because he didn't come `til later. Findley: Goodall: Did you talk to Charlie Booher? No, I haven't talked to Charlie Booher.Mrs. Findley: Have you talked to Grovell? Goodall: Yes, I talked to Grovell.Mrs. Findley: Charles and Frank Baker could give you quite a bit of information. Go to Frank and he is sitting there and I'm sure he'd be glad to talk to you any time. Findley: Charles would too, I'm sure.Mrs. Findley: Frank and Charles both were in on the, you know, YMCA and all those things. Goodall: Findley: [47:00] Goodall: Do you remember what they was organized for? I know Miss Williams said that the Entre-Nous was organized because the women, you know the men had organized the Bachelor-Benedicts and the women were organized group just for themselves. Could you kind of give me the background on the Entre-Nous? When were the Bachelor-Benedicts organized, Mr. Findley? In 1920. Wasn't it?Mrs. Findley: Now Charles was in on that he'll give you a good account of it. Because they just had an initiation here the other week and he gave a nice account of the history of the club. Findley: Goodall: He did, he really did. I imagine that's one of the oldest. I'm sure it's the oldest social organization here in Muncie. [inaudible]Mrs. Findley: We organized to better the social conditions. Back then they had you know, just public dances and our mothers and fathers didn't want us to go so the boys organized their club to help the social conditions. [48:00]24Because I remember our club we put girls out for going to dances, public dances. And now people have let down so in that part of it. You can do most anything you want to and get by with it. Findley: I wouldn't attempt to tell you anything about the Bachelor-Benedict Club, I'm sure you'll talk to Charles and you can tell him that we said for him to give you the history of it. Which--and he knows it from A to Z as Alice said a while ago, he gave the history of the Club the other night at our installation of officers. And he really made a nice talk.Mrs. Findley: Well, he worked on it just like anybody else would have to do. And polish it. And our club had Clem Gorell and Charles are the only charter members, aren't you? [49:00] Findley: Yes.Mrs. Findley: And I forget I'm one of the charter members. Findley: You said our club that means like we were charter members of your club.Mrs. Findley: No, of your club. We've been organized almost that long. I forget. Goodall: Yeah, she said February 1920.Mrs. Findley: Well, that's the same year. Goodall: Findley: [inaudible] I remember her giving me that information. I didn't think, did know until just last year or so that you girls organized the same year we did.Mrs. Findley: I just forgot the year. But I know it was right after you boys organized. And we organized at O. C. Smith's house. Goodall: What about any--Mrs. Findley: So, we've been going a long time. Goodall: What about any trials or anything? Do you remember any unusual trials that Negroes were involved in back there?Mrs. Findley: Well, the biggest one I can remember when--25[50:00] Findley: When Gray shot Frank Bass.Mrs. Findley: No, honey. This is before that. When Ambrose Stray shot Clarence Tally-- Findley: Clarence Tally, yeah.Mrs. Findley: --down here at this Olden's Saloon right down here on Broadway. That was a white saloon, but Negroes went there. Findley: It wasn't in the saloon was it? Wasn't it over there across the street there?Mrs. Findley: No, honey, it was at the Saloons. It was either in front or inside, I don't remember which. But it was at the Olden Saloon. Findley: It was at over at Franklin's place across the street, honey.Mrs. Findley: Franklin, who? Honey? Findley: Liz Franklin's father.Mrs. Findley: No. Findley: He had that camera joint across the street.Mrs. Findley: No, it was at that saloon. Findley: No, no, honey.Mrs. Findley: Well don't get me mixed up because I was on trial at that trial. I was on trial and I was just a young girl. But you see we had come from church on Saturday night used to have markets over at Bethel and when we come by there they were both standing out there in front of the saloon and it was on that same night that he shot Clarence Tally. [51:00] But don't get, don't confuse him because just wait and get, be sure about it. Because I was sure it was at the saloon that he was shot. It wasn't over at Franklin's place. Findley: You know where Franklin's place was, don't you?Mrs. Findley: No, I don't.26Findley:It was across the park just south of Benson's. Over there in the park.Mrs. Findley: Well, that's where--that's where. Findley: No, the saloon was on this side of the street.Mrs. Findley: On what side, Clem? Findley: On the--on the east side of the street.Mrs. Findley: I beg your pardon Olden's Saloon was on the same side that Mr. Benson was on. Findley: No, no honey.Mrs. Findley: Oh yes, you just, don't take our word. You just get that from somebody else `cause Clem, you're way off. Findley: No.Mrs. Findley: Oh but, you are. And I don't know who to call to find out. John Lucas would know. Findley: Goodall: Yes. Well, we can check it out. Like I say it's not that important. We can get some names, some ideas and clues and I look into different records and old newspapers and all and find out.Mrs. Findley: About the biggest trial, I think, was when Ambrose Ray shot Clarence Talley. [52:00] Because Ambrose was such a mild sort of a fellow, you know, and for him to shot somebody it just--shook up the town. Findley: Then there was Rudy McCrae shot Frank Bass. That happened on South Ebright Street.Mrs. Findley: Yes, but that happened in-- Findley: That's been a long time ago.Mrs. Findley: About twenty or thirty years ago.27Findley:It was more than that.Mrs. Findley: Well this other has been fifty years ago or more. What else was there? There was a lot of [inaudible] going on, but I don't remember. Goodall: [53:00] Well, you'd be surprised how much you get when you put it together. They got some girls that type it all up. And when they put it all together they got quite a file out there. When you put it all together-- Mrs. Findley: When did you Goodalls come to Muncie? You were late. Goodall: Findley: Goodall: Findley: Yeah, I think mom said in the 1920s. About 1922, '23. I was born in '27. So you're really a Hoosier, aren't you? Full blown. Munciete. Well, it's kind of hard to remember. When you catch somebody cold turkey and all. But I appreciate you taking the time to talk to me.Mrs. Findley: You're not ashamed of it, are you? Goodall: Well, I'm not ashamed of it but I don't go around bragging about it. [laughter]Mrs. Findley: Well, what difference does it make where you were born? Goodall: Not that much I guess.Mrs. Findley: Now Marion Remy used to say that he was ashamed that he was born in Muncie. And I'm proud of my Muncie and anybody that says about Muncie is just burning me up. [54:00] Goodall: I'm not ashamed anymore.Mrs. Findley: Well, there is nothing to be ashamed of. Findley: I tell you, Muncie--28Goodall:Muncie is a fine little town I'm telling you. And got more rich young white people in it than any little town around in this same part of the country. Muncie used to be a bad town.Findley:Mrs. Findley: Well who made it bad? Goodall: Findley: It just had a bad reputation. Yes, it did.Mrs. Findley: I wouldn't be ashamed of it because I lived in the town. Chicago and New York and all those places have bad reputations. Findley: They used to call it Little Chicago.Mrs. Findley: I know they did. But after all it wasn't your fault that it was bad. Findley: Down there from the railroad to Willard Street and from Willard to--Mrs. Findley: I know its got a bad reputation [inaudible]. Findley: Walnut down to Elm. It was known as red light and it was bad down there.Mrs. Findley: It was bad everywhere. Findley: It was bad down there.Mrs. Findley: You was bad down there with them, too, wasn't you? [laughter] [55:00] Findley: Goodall: I wasn't bad, I was just down there. What did Mr. Blair do?Mrs. Findley: Mr. Blair, he worked at the--at the Keller Bryce Company. Findley: That's what I was going to say.Mrs. Findley: That's where he worked. Goodall: Keller Bryce?29Mrs. Findley: Keller Bryce that was right where Johnson block there on the round hill on Johnson block. It was a big haberdashery. And he worked there for years and years and then he went to the wire mill. And then after that he went in politics and had a city job. But that's where he worked for years, the haberdashery. Goodall: Well, he was around her for a good while, wasn't he?Mrs. Findley: Yes, he was here for quite a while. Because he and Amy got married in 1905. Findley: Goodall: Findley: Goodall: He doesn't know who Amy is? Yeah, I remember Amy. You know who Amy is? Yeah, I remember her.Mrs. Findley: Now you know he remembers Amy. Findley: Goodall: Well, I didn't know. I was a teenager when she died.Mrs. Findley: I think everybody knew Amy. [56:00] Goodall: Mr. Blair live longer than she did.Mrs. Findley: Yes, he did. Goodall: Yeah, I remember him, because you know, we used to kind of hang around with Beverly and all them was my age.Mrs. Findley: And then he was the superintendent of your Sunday school for a long time. Goodall: Yes, I remember him, Mr. Powell and Ruth Taylor and all those people. Sunday school at Schafer, I just can't remember.Mrs. Findley: Well, you were just too young. Findley: I know my dad and mother, my mother, I never will remember her walking without crutches. She had inflammatory rheumatism and it finally30just killed her. It got in her throat and she couldn't swallow. And that's what caused her death. [57:00] But my dad was just a hard working man. Goodall: Do you have any old pictures or anything, you know, that might could be reproduced or a history book or something?Mrs. Findley: I just got those two pictures and I don't know where they are. Goodall: Well, see I won't take them now but when they get ready they can't get them and make copies of them and get them back to you. Because people don't want to give something like that up. Mrs. [inaudible] gots some pictures of the Ball Brothers Band and some of that stuff that we want to go back and get. But we'll wait until they're ready to copy it and then. I've got a picture of my class when I graduated out of Whiteley school up here. You have? Would you mind letting us use it when the time comes? No. Do you think you can identify most of the people?Findley: Goodall: Findley: Goodall: [58:00] Findley:I can name them all, that's the reason they brought it to me. Because I could name all. And the girl that used to live here when we were going to school we were contestants, each one tried to be the most intelligent and she got the highest, but it was a county school and she got the highest grade in the county and I got the second highest grade in the county. We graduated up here from Longfellow school. And I got the picture here.Mrs. Findley: You wouldn't be bragging would you? Goodall: Findley: You were a star then. She tell you, I was a star. You tell him, I was a scholar. And why I quit school, I'll never know.Mrs. Findley: Well just don't go into that. You quit because you were stupid and didn't have sense enough to keep on going.31Findley:Most stupid when I married you wasn't I?Mrs. Findley: I don't know about that. You hadn't done much good up until the time you married me. [laughter] [59:00] You know we'll be married one hundred--fifty years in June. That's a long time to stay with him. How long have you been married? Goodall: I've been married, it will be twenty-four years, first of May.Mrs. Findley: Honest? Why it don't seem possible! Mm-mm-mm. Findley: Goodall: These years have passed pretty fast for me. Some good ones, some bad ones. [laughter] Well you put them all together.Mrs. Findley: You know it's a funny thing, Bill told my brother that my father was one of the first jockeys, Negro jockey's to ride in the Kentucky Derby. And boy he took that and ran with it, Bill did. Goodall: I know he's won some money off of some us guys. Isaac Murphy?Mrs. Findley: Yes, I think it was Isaac. This man told my brother, of course, we don't have anything to show for it. [1:00:00] He can't prove it. But that's what he told John. I suppose you could go to the records. Isaac Murphy but I don't know what you'd do about that. Goodall: He went. `Cause most of them wouldn't believe, you know, that a Negro had ever rode in the Kentucky Derby. So just the fact that he did is a plus and then, of course, Blair. Old Bill Blair is something, I think. He come in here and in any time he and sis will be in an argument and sis put him out. [laughter]Findley:Mrs. Findley: And then he don't come a while. I wonder about why he don't come. But he's certainly looked after. Findley: Yeah, he gets after sis about her age. [laughter]Mrs. Findley: And you know he found out how old I was it he's just awful, he's terrible.32[1:01:00] Goodall: I know Bill is something else.Mrs. Findley: And he's never let me forget it. Not that I care `cause old I am. But he sure does razz me about it. Goodall: Well I really appreciate you all taking time to talk to me.Mrs. Findley: Well that's all right, Hurley, I think it's a real fine thing. We'd be stupid if we didn't. Goodall: Well I think we'll get it together. And I know the University and a lot of people have expressed interest in trying to finance the thing.Mrs. Findley: And it's worthwhile information `cause I'm sure that a lot of people don't have any idea how much Negroes have been through. Goodall: I know they don't. I know all the kids that I know, so you know.Mrs. Findley: And just look at all that ground over there, Young bought out there. Just look at all that. And it's valuable property too now in Muncie. [1:02:00] He was a character. Do you remember him? Goodall: Findley: No I don't. Oh no, sis, he died way before he was born.Mrs. Findley: No, he didn't die before he was born, Clem, because he was living when I was working up there at Simpson's you know that. Goodall: What was his name? What was his first name?Mrs. Findley: Elroy, what was his name? Findley: Young is all I can remember.Tape 1 ends; tape 2 begins Mrs. Findley: What was his name? You know that part where Agnes Benson lives and all through there.33Goodall:All up there along North Broadway? We might be able to find it.Mrs. Findley: Yes. Now it's a shame I can't remember his name. And all of the children that he had. Well you knew the youngest girl, what's her name? What's that youngest girl's name? [01:03:00] Didn't you know, you knew Evelyn and Dave and Honeyday, well you know she's his daughter. Findley: Mertie Woods.Mrs. Findley: Mertie Woods. Goodall: I knew their kids, you know.Mrs. Findley: Yes. Mertie Woods was their step-daughter, her mother married. But why can't I remember his name? [background noise] Goodall: Miss Mertie Woods, does she live right there on Market street?Mrs. Findley: She lives there on the corner of Market and Broadway. Goodall: And some girl she had there with her. It wasn't Barbara, the girl's name was something else. But I remember we used to go over there and she'd have parties out there.Mrs. Findley: She married, one of those girls married [inaudible] Haywood. [01:04:00] That's the one, I'm sure. Goodall: That's the one I'm thinking of, I can't think of her name.Mrs. Findley: I can't think of her name, either. Goodall: But I know we used to go over there and she'd have you know, little parties out there.Mrs. Findley: And you remember Lewis Horn? He used to have that property way out that was way out on Brickyard, wasn't it Clem? Findley: Who was that?34Goodall:The Brickyard?Mrs. Findley: No, you wouldn't remember that, because that's been a long time ago. Lewis Horn, you know, he had some valuable property out there. Findley: Oh, that's way out. [background noise]Mrs. Findley: He used to date the Johnson girl. Didn't she live out there, then? Findley: Oh no, the Johnson girl on Jackson Street on Kilgore. Not Kilgore, Tillotson.Mrs. Findley: Oh that was out there towards the brickyard wherever that was. Mr. Horn used to live out there. [1:07:35] End of interview35
  • Middletown Digital Oral History Collections
  • Black Muncie History Project Collection
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  • To order a copy, inquire about permissions, or for information about prices, contact Archives and Special Collections, Ball State University Libraries at (765) 285-5078 or via email at jstraw@bsu.edu,Copyright 2007, Ball State University. All Rights Reserved.
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