Black Muncie History Project MSS 33/R 5 Interviewer: J. Paul Mitchell with Hurley Goodall Interviewee: Roy Buley Date of Interview: September 22, 1977 Mitchell: Buley: Mitchell: Buley: Back in 1927, interview between Dr. Paul Mitchell and Hurley Goodall and Roy Buley. Okay. You said 1927. Did I say--1977? And then [inaudible] wife and I, where--where her children were--were quite happy out there. I like it primarily because the weather is so much better in the Midwest. I think last year when they were having uh, this terrific winter throughout the United States, I think it got to zero in Portland. It didn't get that low. I like that kin' a carryin' on. That environment out there is a lot better those people are aware and take care of-- Um-hm. Colorada. You know it's this funny thing about the city of Portland though, about three hundred thousand--close to four hundred thousand--people, `bout every year they rate real high as a city in suicides. More suicides there, I guess, than about any state in United States, one of the highest, and I can't figure that out. I wonder why, you know, because people make good money, they seem to be living well, and I don't know. Maybe there's some high point projecting there. I don't know. Huh. I didn't realize that. It's close to the ocean, innit? Maybe some them days depressing in that.Goodall: Buley: Mitchell: Buley:Mitchell: Goodall:1Buley:Well, it's not that close. I guess a hundred and--hundred miles. But a quite a few people go up to Mount Hood, n' mountains all around. Columbia River, people jump off there `bout every day into that water. I can't figure that out. But the suicide rate is very high. Are you working there, or retired now? Yes, I'm retired. Retired. `Bout the only thing I can do each day, oh, grandkids, and children pick us up. Both my wife and I are retired. Drive us around different places--any place we wanna go, you know--but most time I sit here n' use my tape recorder and a radio, and uh, listen to records and talk a lot. Sometime I write a little verse, which I like to do sometime. Um-hm. How many children to do you have out there? Four. Four children and I forgot to count my grandchildren. Must be ten or twelve, fourteen. How come they all to be in Portland?Mitchell: Buley: Mitchell: Buley:Mitchell: Buley: Mitchell: [3:00] Buley: Mitchell: Buley:Well, it's my wife's uh, second--I'm her second marriage. Um-hm. When her husband went out there, both of them, when they separated he went out there to work in the shipyards, and he took three--two or three of the children with him. I met her while I was in service in Greenwood, Mississippi, in the army, and, we of course, we uh, youngest child we kept with us. And she went to Ball State, in fact, she working on a foreign language degree, and uh, I think she went here for a year, year and a half. And I found I was searching around, I was in college, just finished. And out there, foreign language department out there was better than the one here, and she wanted to be with her sister--brother and sister anyhow, so she went out there and they all four out there.[4:00] Mitchell: Buley: Did you go in the service outta high school? No.2Mitchell: Buley: Mitchell: Buley:You graduated from Central in 1935? Yes. It was about forty-four before I went in--the service. What did you do in--after high school? Well I went to CC Camp! It's in Depression years, you know, '35. In fact I finished school in June thirty-five, I think. That's all, in CC Camp, at Fort Benjamin Harrison, stayed in there six, eight months. Then um-- How did you get--how did you get into that? You just applied for it? The CC Camp? Yeah. Well, we need the money, one thing in the family, and at that time, of course, `a CC Camp was `bout the only way for guys to get money, so I went. I signed up.Mitchell: Buley: Mitchell: Buley: [5:00] Mitchell: Buley:How much did they pay in CC Camp? Something like thirty, forty dollars a month. Something like that. First went in-- prally when you got out, too. It wasn't any higher than that, I don't think. But it was a good experience. Very good. But you know left, we all want to talk `bout you anyway. Gettin' on back. You were born in Muncie, weren't you? No, I was born in Knoxville, Tennessee. Knoxville, Tennessee. I must of been five--four or five years old--about five years old--came to Muncie. Then uh, we were lived in Kokomo for a while apparently. I don't even remember my father--he passed I guess, but he left when I was quite young, and my mother just uh--just kept us with her.Goodall: Buley: Goodall: Buley:[6:00] Came here and went to Kokomo, then back here. And I went to school here. I went to school in Kokomo just like at first and second grade, something like that. Then the rest of my elementary, junior high, and high school was here in Muncie.3Goodall: Buley: Goodall:You were a pretty good football player in high school. I used to be considered fairly good. I mean, you remember anything--any interesting experiences, you know, when you were playing football at Muncie Central? Were there any black players on the team? Lawrence Fowlkes, Lawrence is passed now--I, Lawrence Fowlkes and I were the, I guess we were on the starting eleven, but Wesley Hall was uh, playing at that time--uh, he was playing on the line.Buley:[7:00] And uh, they were a few other scattered around the second or third team, you know. I think we were about the regulars--not the top regulars, but the-- Goodall: Buley: Goodall: Buley: Mitchell: Buley: What kind of team did you have? We had a state championship team. Yeah? We won the state championship in fall of '34. Your senior year? Yes, um-hm. Senior year. Working up to make make the winning touchdown, I guess. We played Elwood, and they were a tough team. They always did have a tough team. Um-hm, and we beat them.Unidentified: Good morning. Mitchell: Goodall: Buley: [8:00] Well, I--I remember we went to South Bend--it was on the South Bend, uh, campus--uh, well on the [coughing] Notre Dame campus--and uh, we were eating lunch, or I was supposed to eating lunch. I was in line with my tray, and I Good morning. You know, when you guys went on road trips and all, you know, did you run into any problems where you were staying and all? Well, most of the time we didn't stay overnight on any of our trips, but we did run into some problems, and some people.4noticed everybody kept passing me by, you know, they never did scoot me on up. So I go, "What's--what's goes on here, what's going on here" and at that time evidently, hadn't uh--I don't think there were any blacks at Notre Dame, if, well there was a very few, only they didn't really wanna serve us, didn't wanna serve me. And uh, that time coach Walt Fisher was the football coach, and I just yelled out, "What's wrong, Walt? Aren't they goin' serve us?" [9:00] I asked Coach Fisher. He said, "Well, if they don't serve you, he's not going to serve us--we'll walk like that." So he went back and huddled us, some of us, and they opened up and served Wes and Lawrence and me, and whoever, other blacks. They had decided they weren't gonna serve us right there at Notre Dame. Mitchell: Buley: Mitchell: Buley: I've heard some pretty good stories about Walt Fisher as a coach. He used to earn a lot of respect in Muncie. Oh, yes. He was a nice guy. I liked Walt a lot. Very much. Did he uh--keep friction between blacks and whites at a minimum? Yeah, he did because he was so durn big and burly they's afraid to do anything, if he said no, he could probably hit them with his fist. You know, you have your helmet on--many time we been, for instance, lotta time I'd get mixed up on a play or something in practice, you know, he say "Darn it, Buley!" and BANG, and your head would ring for a half hour.[10:00] Well he did everybody, not only me, but everybody, if we messed up plays or anything like. He was just that type of guy. Goodall: Buley: Uh-huh. And he missed out time a' the coaching, he would do some professional wrestling around too, so he was rough, he was a rough guy. But all guys liked him, liked him a lot. He was fair with you, you know, he was real fair. Would you say you didn't have too much problems with your teammates? No, no, none at all. Okay, now you came outta high school, I know a little bit about you know [inaudible] in a long time, so I'll try to move you through some of these and then we'll get talk about some other things.Mitchell: Buley: Goodall:5Buley: Goodall: [11:00] Buley:Um-hm, okay. You know, when you came out of high school, n' you went to CC Camp and went in service and came out, and how did you end up at Wilburforce?Well--well, when I went in the service, first went in, uh, the GI Bill was provided to only servicemen who had--was interrupted--whose college had been interrupted. If they, you know, had a year or so, um, the GI Bill would pay for the rest of the service. Well, when I went in--in the service, I hadn't been to college. When did you go in? In 1945, '45 , yes. And uh, I always go to movies and see uh, football games and everything like that. Then Harry Evans--who lives here now, Harry's, uh, retired from the Post Office--I guess Harry's in his 70s now.Mitchell: Buley:[12:00] Harry had attended Wilburforce University and had played basketball there--he was quite a basketball player, and he talked n' he'd get us together and talk about basketball and he'd show us how to dribble and all that stuff. And uh--I just made my mind I wanted to go to college--I just wanted to go, and I wanted to go to Wilburforce. Well, in uh, like I said, in service, they were only giving fellows who had interrupted their college a chance to get any kind of uh, financial reward. Then, I was in about oh, a year, a year and a half, about a year, they decided to let anyone who participate, who was in service go to college after they got out, and II was happy then. I knew I would have, I knew we couldn't pay for it--my mother couldn't pay for me going to college. Then I found out--after I found out I would be able to go, I was very happy about Wilburforce. [13:00] And uh, at that time it was Wilburforce State. There was a state college--there was two campuses on Wilburforce--Wilburforce University and Wilburforce State. Wilburforce University was uh, funded by the A.M.E. church, African Methodist church, and of course the state part was um--the state of Ohio. Uh, so I entered into Central State, which is now, it's uh, Central State University--it was Central State College then--and I had a very, very lovely four years. I enjoyed it. Goodall: Buley: Play football up there? No I really did'nt, well I--6Goodall: Buley:I thought we went up there to see you play. No, I went out for the team up there--and uh, in fact, when I went out for the team, I think I possibly would have made it--but they had--their equipment was poor, very, very poor.[14:00] And they gave me some shoes. I don't know what--what happened to them, anyhow they wouldn't--they didn't fit and they broke my arch support down. My arch just popped, and uh, I'd go out with the team, I'd try to play and my-- that foot was gone. I had to ban--keep it bandaged and everything, and so I just dropped out of the uh, the football team. And just uh, well I'd say couldn't play football and get my lessons anyhow. So I uh--I didn't play anymore football-- well I didn't play at all. I didn't go out for the team any longer, I just forgot about football. Finished up. Mitchell: Buley: [15:00] Mitchell: Buley: Mitchell: Goodall: Buley: Goodall: Buley: Goodall: Buley: Mitchell: So, when did you graduate? Uh, 1951. Fifty-one. Then you came back and then you played pro football with uh, Marhoefer? Yes, I played semi-pro, semi-pro stuff here, uh-huh. That's what I's thinking. [inaudible] came back there I remember them games in McCullough Park. Yeah, `as right, yes, I used to play with that bunch. That was a nice buncha guys. Buncha guys hitting each other, clear out here in Whiteley. Yeah, that was a kind of tough team. It was tough. They had--Marhoefer sponsored a team? What--what things did you study there? What did you major in? Well, at Central State I majored in Health and Physical Education. I got a BS in think in Health and Physical Education.7Buley: [16:00]Um- I don't think Marhoefer sponsored it- they had a number of people in the community, I think, that put in a little money to get our uniforms, and Marhoefer one of them and Cranor's--yeah, Cranor's--Cranor's coal yard, they helped. I--I don't know all the people that, that really helped, but they put the game- they put the team and we played fairly good.Mitchell: Buley:Who did you play, what? Well, uh, around Indiana different places like, well, Kokomo had a team, um, seemed like Logansport had a team. There were five or six similar teams throughout the state, and we've played them. Um-hm. Um-hm. Something to do on the weekends? Yes, uh-huh. They had good crowds. Yes, we did. They had nice--nice crowds. `Bout four or five thousand. Where'd you play, in-- In McCullough Park we played here, yes. They had a grandstands and everything then, you know, it closed. You'd get that many people out to watch the game, huh? Yes. You know, there were a few of us who had played high school ball, and people followed us. You know, they figured we were still fairly good and they'd come out.Mitchell: Buley: Goodall: Buley: Goodall: Mitchell: Buley: Goodall: Mitchell: Buley:[17:00] Of course, I played football in service. In fact, I must have played, I guess, to the largest--I know the largest crowd I've ever played at this ball stadium in the Philippines. Uh, and then I--there's a funny way I got on the team there--I was, sorry--I was a bugler and of course I'd make myself very unpopular with a lot of guys waking them up in the morning [laughter]. They also put me in charge of some Filipino workers, and most of them were just kids really. They'd have to get out there in the hot sun and just have to work like mad, and I've always been a little soft with kids. Instead of getting adult men from up there, they'd get kids.8[18:00] Well, I guess the kids needed money, too. The lieutenant who was in charge of me--I was sergeant then--came around twice and we were sitting down. I was telling the guys they were working, I said sit down and rest a while. It seemed like every time they'd rest here come the lieutenant driving up in his jeep. So he finally said, "well Buley, Sgt. Buley, you don't know how to handle men--we're paying these workers to work and so and so and you don't know how to keep them working--we're going to have to relieve you" and so and so. Well, in the meantime, at the special services office the lieutenant in charge of special service knew I had played some football in high school and semi-pro, so he'd been trying to get me to come out for the team, but I figured I was getting too old for that. I said, "No, I don't think so," but after the lieutenant said he was going to take my stripes, that he'd pick me another position. [19:00] I knew it was going to be worse than that, so I went back at noon. I went to the office. I said, "Well, I think I'll try out for the team." I told him how the lieutenant--I told him who the lieutenant was--"He's going to take my stripes. I want you to freeze my stripes if it's possible for you to do it." I said, "Now if I make the team, I'd like to keep my stripes--now if I don't make the team, you can take them if you want to." I'd made up in my mind I was going to make that team. At the time they had a guy who had played pro football. I was trying to think of the guy who--he was a Chicago Bears, Chicago Colts, who was coaching our team. I can't think of his name now. In fact, I had some of the brochures and things in Portland that I left there. [20:00] The grandkids look at it every once in a while. And so I went out for the team, and I made it. We'd practice twice a day. So the lieutenant who wanted to take my stripes, he was real angry with me because I'd went over his head, you know. But anyhow, we won the championship of the Philippines and went to Japan to play for the championship of the Pacific. And we lost to the Eleventh Airborne Division--they had a tough team. And from there we played in Kyoto, Japan. I think a couple or three of the games were in Tokyo, and we played, of course, in the Philippine Islands. It was all stadiums. But it was a good experience. [21:00] Mitchell: Buley: So you played football when you were in the service? Yes.9Goodall: Buley:So when you came out--when you came out, you went to Wilburforce? Then what did you do? Did you go right to the YMCA after college? No, let me get this straight. No, I worked at the Colonial Bakery for I don't know how many years--Colonial Bakery. I worked at the Muncie Trade School. In fact I worked Muncie Trade School, that was before I went into the service. I worked Muncie Trade School when I went into the service. What did you do at the Trade School? Janitor. At the Colonial Bakery, was that also before then? Yes, that was before. That was still in the thirties, then, when you came back? Uh-huh. So when you came back with a college degree, why did you come back to Muncie? Well, I was going to Central State, Wilburforce. I came here during the summer cause I lived here.Goodall: Buley: Mitchell: Buley: Mitchell: Buley: [22:00]I'd worked in the YMCA--I'd work just for extra work, worked on the playground. At that time A.J. Pettijohn, who was a dynamic secretary-- Mitchell: Buley: Mitchell: Buley: Is this the downtown Y you're talking about now? No, this was the branch YMCA. Oh, this was the branch Madison Street Y? I worked under Pettijohn, who was general secretary, which was the main thing. And I worked on the playground, worked with the city recreation department. They had a little recreation program on our playground at the Y, and I was doing both--working in the YMCA and working on the playground also. And Tyson was a--well, he was executive secretary--well, he was branch secretary at that time--he was a very, very good secretary.[23:00] And I worked with Tyson on the playground, and when Tyson left--he went to Wisconsin, he took another job there--I had a chance to take his place as secretary there. He thought I was good enough, and the general secretary thought I'd do well enough there. Of course I had to work on my certification and go to10college and work on my masters and certification and everything together. So I stuck right there until I was transferred six or seven years later to Evanston YMCA. Mitchell: Buley: Mitchell: Buley: Mitchell: Buley: [24:00] And I was there until '73. Mitchell: Buley: What were you doing there? Well, I ran the branch YMCA--the Emerson Branch YMCA. It had a lot more facilities. Of course we had a full facility YMCA--swimming pool, nursery, eighteen sleeping rooms, swimming, cafeteria. It was a nice Y--an old YMCA, but it was a nice YMCA. And it was primarily for blacks--it was in a black section of Evanston. In fact, I got into it with the board member when I got there. The chairman of the board said, "Roy Buley I want to tell you what we want here." So you were here until what, about '50? I left here in '62. In '62, and you'd been at the Y all that time? Yes, ever since I finished up college. You left in '62 to go up to Evanston? Right.[25:00] So he said now, he said, "Eight to ten years ago this was a topnotch place of Evanston. All the parties were held here. Everything was right here." I said, "Well I'm just going to lay it on the line. I'd looked over it and I read a lot about the Emerson Street YMCA," and I said--but you should know how that Evanston at that time, in fact, they couldn't stay on--the students at Northwestern who were not living at Evanston. Of course the students had to come to the Emerson Street YMCA for sleeping room. They couldn't sleep on campus at Northwestern. Well, everything did go right around Emerson, all the black things--the parties and everything. That's the only place they could go. Well, I said--It's not like that here now--you can go anyplace in Evanston you want to go, you know. I said, "In the first place, this building is old, quite old, needs work. [26:00]11I don't think the Central Branch is going to soak a half million dollars in here it would take to get it into good general order." I said, "even if they did that, it would still be a building that's out of date." Well, we argued and argued. I said, "Well that's the way I feel about it, but I'll do the best I can. I'll try to be a good secretary here, but I'm not going back fifteen or twenty years. I'm going to try to run a program," and that's what I did until, I guess I was there three years when they decided to integrate the YMCA. The Central Branch and the Emerson Branch-- [27:00] before that time the Central Branch had about five or six stories of beautiful sleeping rooms and everything like that, but most of the time--well all the time-- if a black person came there for sleeping room, they'd say, "go over to the Emerson Y." But we only had eighteen sleeping rooms, and we were filled up. There was no place to sleep. They wouldn't take them, so we had that kind of situation there. But after I went over there, I did some work in helping to integrate the YMCAs, and I think we did a fairly good job in getting things going pretty good. When I left there, Mayor had included blacks in just about everything. Mitchell: Buley: [28:00] --See, the black kids could not swim at the Muncie YMCA, and we had no other place to swim other than out in the creeks and stone quarry and places like that. At that time, the mayor was Mayor Tuhey, and--I was, in fact, I was on the Human Relations Workshop and Mayor Tuhey was on it too--and I told him one day when I was up there, I said, "Mayor this summer now when the pool opens, Tuhey Pool opens, I'm going to take some kids out there." "Oh, no, don't do that, Buley. You're getting ready to start something." I said, "It will already be started." I said, "No fighting or anything like that." I said, "It would be good if you told who's selling tickets to sell us tickets because we'll be out there ready to swim. That's all we want to do is swim." [29:00] Because it used to--when I was in grade school, I had to walk past Tuhey Pool to go to McKinley or go anyplace, and I'd see all those kids swimming, and it'd be so hot and sweaty, and we couldn't swim anyplace. And I knew then that the Was there any effort to do that sort of thing in Muncie before you left? While you were with the Y? Well, the only time that happened--in fact, the one thing that caused the Tuhey pool, pool situation--12black people who owned homes and all them things helped pay for it through their property taxes and different taxes. And I told him that--I said, "After all, you know, that black people are helping pay for it too." "Yes, but give us time, give us time, it'll work." I said, "It hasn't worked in fifty or sixty years. I don't see how it's going to just work, you know. If it was gonna work, it would have worked in that time." Well, after a while, I said I'd just be frank--"I'm going out but" --Jack Young, who I'd played football with during high school, was chief of police in Muncie then. Finally my opening day came. [30:00] Well, he'd called me up a week before opening day and said, "Roy, this is Mayor Tuhey. You still plan to go through with that that--" I said, "Yes, yes I'm going--I'll be there." Well then he had talked to people who were going to sell the tickets. "Well we've arranged to sell you tickets," and I said, "Jack Young, Chief of Police, will be out there to see that no one gets hurt." I said, "Well that's fine. We'll be out there." Well, I took the three kids and we went out and we were in line like everybody else. Got a hundred and fifty kids in line or more getting their first swim of the season, and when we got in line they laid them names on us. They called us everything on earth, and I'd told the kids--we'd met at the Branch--I told them, "Now we're going out there to do this. No fighting. They're going to call you a lot of names." I said, "You'll just have to swallow it, no fighting." [31:00] Well, when we went in--they sold us the tickets--we went in, and soon as I got--I got in too. I'd never been a great swimmer. In fact, I taught swimming at Central State, about the poorest swimmer in the class when I was in class. I could swim. I could keep myself afloat. I could swim fairly good, but I wasn't a great swimmer. One big burly guy said, "Well, what did you come out here for?" We said, "We came out here to swim." "Well, I'm gonna tell you I'm going to drown you." I said, "Well there'll be two of us at the bottom"--but I knew that I was powerful enough that if I got hold of him, he wouldn't get away because there'd be two of us, you know, drowning. I know there was one girl--she was a student at Ball State--who was a life guard there, so she heard it. She said, "Now nobody's going to bother you, so just cool it. If anything happens, it'll be all right. We're here to protect you." I said, "all right, thank you." [32:00] And then we swam for about a half hour or longer. Then we got out and we got outside and more, more kids had huddled up, pulled their shirts off saying they were going to fight. Just three of us, you know, and they called us just all kinds13of names. Well, Jack Young was there. He said, "Now Roy, ain't nobody going to bother you. Just go on, you know, everything is fine." I said, "Okay, Jack." I had just bought a 1956 Chevy, I think it was, a new one. The first car I'd owned, and it was out in the parking lot. When I got out and was going to my car, they were still yelling at me and calling me names. I looked up and saw one kid sitting on the hood with his feet, muddy feet. I said, "All right now." I wasn't really angry, during all that time, all those names and things. [33:00] So when I saw it, I got the hell in me. I'd made up my mind. I said, "Okay"--I said, "You'd better get off." "I'm not going to get off, you black" so and so. I was just going to get in there and just start going. If he'd fallen off, that was just him. I was just going to take that chance. When I started the motor, I guess he could see the hell in my eyes, and he jumped on off there, and I went on. But I'm glad he did get off because I think I would have rammed him or thrown him off or anything because I was boiling inside, you know, I was mad because I had a new car and he had it muddied up. But that's about the way that thing ended. Goodall: Buley: Goodall: Buley: [34:00] Goodall: Buley: Mitchell: Buley: Mitchell: Buley: Goodall: Yeah, yeah, I know who you're talking about now. I got to check and make sure now if these were the three guys. I'm almost certain they were. How old were they? Fifteen or sixteen years old. Not little kids. No. No. James has always been a little kid--even when he was fifteen, he was-- just a puny little guy. Some of the things I read said Lavan Scott was with you. Do you remember who those three kids were that were with you? Yes. James Johnson was one. I think Dr. Smith's son--James--Dr. Smith's son was another one. And Findley, Teddy Findley. I gotta check. James Johnson. What James Johnson--is that Bootsy's brother? No, we called him Rail. He lives in Milwaukee now.14Buley:No. No, Lavan wasn't with us. I read that in the book myself. Dick Evans taped the history and sent it to me on tape so I could hear it through tape. Then I have the book myself. But when we got there Lavan was there, but Lavan wasn't with us--he didn't go out there with us. He might have been there someplace, but he didn't go out with us at all. Did you go back the next day? No. Back to the pool? Yes.Mitchell: Buley: Mitchell: [35:00] Buley: Mitchell: Buley:No. I didn't go back. At all? What they did, they closed the pool after this incident happened. I think one of the black kids, one of them went over--at that time they had opened up the stone quarry or something over here or another pool which was supposed to be for blacks but, somewhere over there--and evidently one of the kids went out there and told them how they'd treated us. So some of the black kids came over to Tuhey's and they thought there was going to be a big fight, so they closed Tuhey's down and they closed the so-called black pool down, and it was closed for about a week or so. I guess about a week. Closed both pools. And that was my last association with the pool situation, but after that I guess it started working. They had to open it up, because it was obvious that it was a violation of the law, what they were doing. Yeah, at least it opened a lot of people's eyes--it opened a number of people's eyes.Goodall: Buley: [36:00] Mitchell: Buley: Mitchell: Buley:And after that black youngsters went over and used it? Yes. Yes, that's true. How about the Y--was there any effort during that time, say, to close down the branch Y and integrate the downtown? Was the downtown one really integrated? No, it wasn't.15Mitchell: Buley:It wasn't integrated at all? No, not then. Not at that time, but later I guess it finally did--it did integrate on a small degree, I think. I don't think it was ever completely integrated, probably still not completely integrated. I don't know much about the YMCA here now. It's better now. You can probably do what you want to do. At that time--I remember when Earl Carlton was general secretary. Earl Carlton. Yes, Earl. Now I think he's in Florida--last I heard he was--he'd retired from the Y I guess.Goodall: Buley: Mitchell: Buley:[37:00] I guess he was running either a senior citizen home or something down there. He was a brilliant guy and knew his work. He called me after the incident--he said, "Roy, said I just want to tell you what the board members think about you going out to Tuhey Pool." I said, "Well what do you think?" He said, "They don't like it." I said, "Well"--I said I wasn't doing it primarily as the YMCA secretary. I was doing it as a black citizen. And Carlton made me kind of angry. I knew he had--he would give me what the board members thought and all like that, which is good. I said, "Well, I don't care what they think." I said, now, I said, "You're the boss--if you want to fire me, fine. I'll go." "No, I'm not talking about firing, but I want you to know what people are saying." I said, "Well, a lot of people have told me it was fine that I did it. They're on my side, but not their board members. You work for the board members." [38:00] I said, "Well since you are the general secretary, you're the boss. You do what you think--if that means I'm fired, I'm fired. I can get me another job someplace." "No, I'm not thinking about firing you." I said, "Well, if I had it to do all over again, I would do the same thing and hope that I could do it better." And I talked with Carlton and that's the only thing I heard from him about that. Goodall: Buley: Well, they did respect you for doing it. You know, at that particular time, it was a lot harder than a lot of people realized. Yes, it was a difficult thing. It was quite difficult. And then when I got home, I had a number of crank calls. But one thing that made me real warm--the same car that I had--I never rolled my windows up in a car. I usually get out of the car16and go on in, and I came out to go someplace and there was a couple of cigarette butts laying on the back seat smoking up a breeze. [39:00] Somebody had just passed by and flipped them in there, you know, and well I put them out. There wasn't anything too serious other than that happen. Goodall: Buley: Goodall: Buley: Mitchell: Buley: [40:00] Of all the foul stuff I had heard over the phone. Bob called me up. He said, "This is Bob Barnett, Buley." I said--Bob always protects himself--he didn't say you did a good job or anything like that, but what he said was something better than what I'd been hearing. I forgot what it was now--something like, "Keep up the work." I could tell it was a little more pleasant than what I was hearing. [laughter] Mitchell: Buley: Let's get back to that football team. That was before you went into the service that you played for that semi-pro team around here? Yes. Now those years I got to kind of get together. I'm not certain, but--I'm not certain it was before I went in because after I got out--let's see, I graduated from Central High in '35. That was a landmark in this community. I think that incident there began to change a lot of things that hadn't changed over the past twelve years. Yeah, I think it might have kind of opened a lot of people's eyes. It might have. I remember Fred Hinshaw and some of those people who were-- I think he was on the Board of Works at that time--something-- Yeah, Fred was. Yeah, I think Fred was at WLBC. Bob Barnett was--of course, Bob had known me through high school football and--[41:00] I didn't go to college until '46 and '47. Of course, during that time I was in the service and played for the Muncie Boosters--Muncie Boosters, wasn't that the name of that team? Goodall: Yes, something like that.17Mitchell: Buley: Goodall: Buley: Mitchell: Buley: Mitchell: Buley: [42:00]Muncie Boosters. Muncie Boosters was the name. I think that's right. I remember the Jets and all those [inaudible]. I remember seeing them as a kid. We'd always--[inaudible] We were playing at McCullough Park then. McCullough Park was rough then-- hard ground, very little grass. Was it an integrated team? Yes, it was an integrated team. Who else--do you remember who played? Well, the Craner boys. Fred Craner. I think the brother's name was Bob. The Craner boys played on the team.God, I can't think of the other guys that played, but it was integrated. Mitchell: I remember--what's his name, used to live about next door to you--trying to think of his name--Harvey Scott--talking about a kind of sandbox football team that he played on, but that was probably a number of years earlier. Were there any sandbox teams around still in the thirties? I don't remember any--there might have been. [inaudible] Grissley's he played for and said they used to go out there and beat each other up, too. Sound like to me what they really wanted was a fight, and they just used the ball to keep some order to it. About the only thing I remember about Harvey Scott was he was a good saxophone player. He used to play in a little jazz band around here. He was a good saxophone player.Buley: Mitchell:Buley:[43:00] Mitchell: Buley: What about some of the other people you went to school with? Are there any that stand out in your mind? Well, I think Marshall Birch. I think some of the guys that I figure were great guys, Marshall Birch. I think Marshall is someplace in Illinois now. He was a18top notcher. Although I think he was an A student for one thing. Of course, the Holiday--I think Ernest Holiday is dead now--and Jack Young. Goodall: Buley: [44:00] Jack Young was the one that ended up as Chief of Police. Goodall: Buley: Goodall: Buley: I was thinking about Nellie Donegan, Cliff Donegan-- Cliff was a little ahead of us. [inaudible] Of course, like I said, after school was out, they went to their community and we went to ours. While we were in school together, we had a good time together. Oh, we had a couple of clubs--what was the name of the club? Blue Bonnett-- whatever some club, all lily white in there, but most of the other clubs, they were integrated. But they had what they called the Glee Club. I was assistant director of that under Glen Stepelton--that was a all-black group. Let's go over them one at a time. If you know whether they're dead or not or what they did, I'll know. Holiday, he wasn't a policeman, was he? Ernest? No, I don't think he was--I don't think he was on the force.[45:00] But most other things were integrated. I think some of their foreign language classes were white only--there may have been a few spotted clubs around the school that weren't integrated. Mitchell: Buley: Mitchell: Buley: [46:00] Do you remember any incidents while you were in high school that involved friction between whites and blacks? No, I don't--I think as a rule the high school was friction free--racial friction, anyhow, in the school there. We just didn't have it. Did you, um, feel encouraged by the school to go on? Were there any differences in what students took? What course of study they followed? In most of the--the counselors would tell you practically at that time--at least, they thought it was practical stuff. Like if I said I liked to be a lawyer--you know, I didn't say that stuff.19If I would have, chances are they would say, "Now listen Buley, I think your best bet is to try to be a teacher. There's more black teachers, very few black lawyers--you know you'd have a better chance of getting a job." They didn't put you through a thing like electronics or thing like this. Like Negroes weren't involved in too much then. They'd try to keep you on a level where the greater number of Negroes were being employed. And if you talked to the counselor, he'd try to keep you down there instead of saying, you know, do you want to be a doctor or something like that? They wouldn't encourage you. Well, your best bet, I think, would be, you know, so and so-- Goodall: Buley: Goodall: [47:00] Buley: Yes. I will never forget Longfellow. This is a little incident that kind of stuck in my memory. Mr. Yates was up there about that time. I guess all the guys around here went under Mr. Yates. Old [unintelligible] until he retired. I remember in the bathroom down there they had these one papers, you know, you pull out one at a time, toilet tissue, and they had those doors there--well, they didn't have a door on the toilet. At our house we was lucky to have just regular reading paper or anything for toilet paper--we used anything. So I was in there using the bathroom, and I was pulling this paper out--boy, I ripped it out. I was going to town--that's something I never did before. I could enjoy it. So Mr. Yates--I could tell Mr. Yates's voice--he said, "Who's in there?" I said, "Oh, it's Roy Buley, Mr. Yates." Mr. Yates got from his toilet and came around there. Are there any particular teachers you really remember as you went through the Muncie school system that really helped you? Yes, right. Mrs. Wade was one--she taught English. I think everyone thought a lot of Mrs. Wade. Did you go to Longfellow any?[48:00] He said, "Roy I want you to count every sheet of paper in your hand," and I counted, and I think it must have been around forty sheets of paper. "That's forty sheets--that's enough to wipe forty people's behind, and you're just wasting it." Boy, he gave me a lesson of my life right there, and I said OK, and he made me push it all back up in there. All about three sheets. I never will forget that. [laughter] That's one thing that's stuck to me all my life--not to waste things. Yates was something else. Mitchell: Buley: How many kids were there in your family? Well, there were six in the family--three boys and three girls. There are three living.20Mitchell: [49:00] Buley: Mitchell: Buley: Mitchell: Buley: Mitchell:Did you all go through high school?No, my sister, my youngest sister, I don't know if she finished high school. Where did you figure in? Were you the oldest or were you--? I was the youngest boy. You were the youngest boy? I was about fourth or fifth--fifth, I guess, because my sister is younger than me. Yes, it's always the two younger ones that go through high school. Did that make quite a difference in the family that you went to high school and the older ones hadn't? No, not really. They got behind me and just pushed me. They were glad to see me go because, in fact, if anyone else had been ready, we couldn't have made it anyhow with our income, which was nothing. So they were happy to help get one through. Had your mother and six kids here? Yes.Buley:Mitchell: Buley: [50:00] Mitchell: Buley:Where did you live? in Whiteley? Yes, we lived in Whiteley on Butler Street--this same street most of the time, down the next two or three blocks. We lived here, we lived on Burns Street, two or three places we lived on Burns Street. Then we lived on Madison Street, too. When they build the apartment later years. Did the older kids all have to work? Did they go out on their own, or did they stay home and work? Well, some of them went with other members of other family--aunts and things. We kind of separated some, but I think my youngest sister and I, we stayed with Mom most of the time, and my sister that passed--there were about three of us that stayed with, close with Mother with different aunts and different other relatives.Mitchell: Buley:21[51:00] Mitchell: Buley: Would you say that still in 1935 that graduating from Central was an unusual thing for a black youngster? Well, I think it was unusual in the sense that if you could graduate of any place in 1935, which was a type of depression, you were doing great. You were really, really making it because we were lucky even to get the chance to carry lunch to school. What we ate for breakfast was just about it. And that's, you know, if you happened to be in athletics--something that kind of stir you along, help you go. You think it made a big difference, the fact that you played football and did all that stuff? It did. Yes. Yes, it helped my mind because I love to play football, and I would go to school just to play it. Well, as one reason for going to school was to play football and track. I loved the track team, too.Mitchell: Buley:[52:00] Mitchell: Buley: Did the school do anything in particular to keep you there? Not really, not really. They gave me the same hard knocks as anyone else. You just came to school and got your lessons, and that was it. That's the only thing you got out of it. When you came out, did they try to help you get any scholarships or anything like that to help afford college? No. There were a number of people--in fact, I remember when I got out the coach from Tennessee State--came all the way form Tennessee State, I guess, up here to get me to come to Tennessee State. Of course, at that time they offered partial scholarships. They didn't have that much money down at Tennessee State then, but I still would have to still--if I went I'd have to take some money with me. Maybe one hundred dollars or something like that. No way on earth for my family to get hold of one hundred dollars, so I had to turn them down.Goodall: Buley:[53:00] Sorry, I'd like to come, but I can't do it now. Goodall: Buley: But it was really a common practice for high schools to help black or white athletics to get scholarships? No. There--one thing that happened in high school that kind of got next to me. I'd always been a good wrestler. I was strong, my body and arms and everything.22And in the, uh, gym class, I could throw everybody. I don't care how large they were, I could pin them. But I couldn't get on the wrestling team. They wouldn't let black guys wrestle, and I asked--allowed things like that always disturbed me. And I couldn't understand why not. In fact, the guy, he finally went to the Olympics as a wrestler, I could pin him so easy it could make his head swim. [54:00] And he went to Indiana University, and finally he went to the Olympics. He wrestled in the Olympics. Well, anyhow, I was asking why is it blacks can't wrestle? I said, "Why not, why"--other than the old prejudice bit thing. He said, "Well you know, black people sweat more than white people and they are hard to hold--that's a disadvantage." I said, "And that's about the silliest thing I've ever heard in my life." And that's what they said, and these adults were trying to feed this in my mind, which I didn't accept. But they still didn't let--it wasn't until thirty-eight or thirty-nine before they let blacks wrestle on the high school team. Mitchell: Buley: Mitchell Buley: [55:00] Mitchell: Buley: So, really, the GI Bill was a major stepping stone for you, then, to get into college? Yes, it was. In fact, the GI Bill got me through my bachelor's and my master's degree. See, I had enough time. I had thirty-eight months in the service, so that was enough time to get me my bachelor's and my master's degree. Did you get a master's degree here? Yes, at Ball State. And that was in education? That was in social science. Social science. And that was necessary for certification for the YMCA? That was statewide. I beg your pardon. I think that was also statewide in Indiana. There weren't any black wrestlers. Yes, it might have been--it might have been that. But I was just referring--just what happened here 'cause it affected me.Mitchell: Buley: Mitchell: Buley: Mitchell:23Buley:Well, it really wasn't necessary. Beyond your degree you had to have, I think, thirty hours of YMCA professional work. That's group studies and different things that the YMCA asked you to have.[56:00] No matter what your degree was, you still had to have thirty hours of special work in YMCA activities, and I got--well, I did part of it at Anderson College. I did, I think it was, the life of Jesus--that was one thing we had to get. I did a correspondence course with George William College for some of my certification, and I did some at the YMCA state office in Indianapolis. Mitchell: Buley: Mitchell: Buley: Did being in that position put any particular pressures on you, as you can recall? At where? Being what? Being the secretary of the branch Y here. Not really. Of course, the pressure, of course, has always been why do they have a branch YMCA with meager facilities and a Central YMCA with good facilities? And a lot of time you had to defend yourself on that.[57:00] And I didn't defend myself on it, that the fact it's not integrated. It's not my fault. I just as soon work up there as work here. I think I have as much know-how as the other secretaries up there. It's the way it is. Goodall: Buley: Goodall: I can't think of too many other things to ask you, Roy. I appreciate you talking-- I didn't give you much information, but-- You'd be surprised. That's about all I can ask, all I can think of. You've led a very interesting life--you've really had an impact on this community anyway. And I think that's significant. Well, I've always enjoyed people, and I tried to do the best I can for them. Oh, in that autobiography, I always have to get back to Portland and have Erma get all that stuff together and write it up.Buley:[58:00] You leave me your address. Goodall: Okay.24Buley: Goodall:When I get it completed and typed up, I'll send you a copy of it. Okay, good deal. I'd kind of like to have an autobiography because a lot of people, particularly college kids, come out there to Buley Center and they want to know Roy Buley Center--who was Roy Buley and why was this named after him and all? Really, even black youngsters need to know. I was telling them they need to--they usually have a program, brochures typed up, something about Roy and his background and, of course, the history of the Center and when it was built [unintelligible], if possible if you could do it? That's something for me to work on.Buley: [59:00]Keep me from laying on my couch too much. Before basketball season starts. Goodall: Buley: Trailblazers out there--now you got. Oh, gosh. They're still talking about it in Portland. Will be until somebody else wins the championship. But they're saying they think they're going to win the second one, like the Boston Celtics. Yeah, if they keep [inaudible] If they can keep the help, he'll be a big [unintelligible] mentally. Yeah. Right. Did the Branch Y increased over the time while you were there? It increased, but not to any great extent because usually in the YMCAs they fund you on what you can raise, for instance, in your membership drives. They say, "Well, you only raised eight hundred dollars, that about--we can't give you an increase because you didn't raise that much money."Goodall: Buley: Mitchell & Goodall: Mitchell: Buley:[1:00:00] Well, we didn't have any facilities that we could use to really get any money. They'd say. "We got the swimming pool, we've got so and so." We just had to get pittance type of service. They'd give you a pittance back--that's about the only thing we could expect. Mitchell: Buley: What kind of facilities did you have there at the Y? At the Y here?25Mitchell: Buley:Yes. The only thing I had here, in fact, it was an army barracks that Howard Settles and, I think, Ambrose, his brother who is dead now--Howard is still living. It'll be nice to talk to Howard about how he built that. I know I passed by there when they were building, when they were getting that thing together. It was just one large room, and they had two little offices--little library and little office together. And we'd play pool and a little ping pong in this one room here. And the kids-- and when I was there I'd have dances there.[01:01:00] I'd have bake sales. I'd just try to do as many things as possible in this one building here. Then, of course, we had a nice outside that we used for movies during the summer, and I tried to keep it kind of alive more than anything else. And it worked real good. And I talk to kids now--well, they're not kids anymore, they're grown people. They say, "The best time I ever had in my life was at Emerson Y." Inside and outside, it's just something that seemed to go all the time. Of course, that was before the dope thing really got a big hold. I doubt if I'd been half as effective if I'd been in that dope situation like's going on now or like it was in the '60s. Mitchell: Buley: [01:02:00] Even with that, we would get our little team. We had a team, however, and we'd go up to Wilburforce and we'd play the fraternal teams up there and travel to Anderson, Richmond, and play centers. I kept them moving, and we had educational, what I called educational tours. I toured the kids through Wilburforce, since that was my alma mater and I wanted to get the black side of things--how black teachers, how black students on the campus were--in case they wanted to go to that school. We--We went to Wilburforce, we went to Tennessee State, we went to four or five different colleges, so they'd get the idea of a college--of college surroundings--and quite a few of them attended. Attended the school because they saw something there that might help them. [1:03:00] Mitchell: Did you have any--were you able to do anything in the way of education, any educational types of things within the building, or was that part of the-- So, you didn't have a basketball floor or any of that? No. We had a basketball hoop outside that we would use.26Buley: Mitchell: Roy:No, not here in Muncie. No. In Evanston we did have some educational things-- little workshops and things like that. We had more room, more facilities there. The facility here just really wasn't very much to do. Yeah, that's right. We just couldn't make it. Of course, we used our--I would use the churches, some of the churches, and the Park Lodge. We'd come out-- Sometimes I would come out to the park lodge--it's still there, by the way--at 3:00 in the afternoon and make a fire and stay there from 3:00 until 9:00 with the kids, trying to get that place warm so they could dance in there.[01:04:00] Then I'd soon--In fact, I'd stay from 3:00 until 12:00. Mitchell: Buley: Goodall: Mitchell: Buley: Where was this? The Park Lodge. McCullough Park? In McCullough Park? Yeah, because that place was an [unintelligible]. God it was cold in there, and what we'd burn was just wood. And it'll take that kind of wood a long time to heat that place up. All the heat was going up the chimney. That's right, and a lot of times myself making fires and putting wood on there until, well, if the dance would start at 9:00, I'd be there from 3:00 or 4:00 until the kids came. Then they'd dance three hours or so. Sometimes I'd be there from 3:00 until 12:00 midnight. But I did it, and I wanted them to have some fun and they did have. We didn't hardly have any fights or anything like that, and the kids enjoyed their selves. So I figured it was a pretty good plus.Goodall: Buley:[01:04:00] Goodall: Buley: What about the camps over there at the Y? Did they ever tell you why they wouldn't let black youngsters go to Camp Crosley? Well, they never did tell us why--they never did. Well, the only, they said you have a good camp at Camp Flatrock, even though it wasn't with the Muncie YMCA camp. You know you have a good camp at Camp Flatrock, and the black campers will be going there, and you know. Really, you got to the point you got tired of asking whys--why you, why this--because they're going to give you the27same old story every time. And then too, I, a lot of times I believe in the black pride stuff like that too, and Camp Flatrock did have a beautiful camp. They put a lot of money in it, and the kids--I knew they would love to go there and spend some time there, so it really didn't bother me if we didn't go to Camp Crosley as long as the kids went to camp and got their good camping experience. [01:05:00] Mitchell: Buley: Goodall: Buley: Goodall: Mitchell: Buley: Mitchell: Buley: Goodall: Mitchell: Buley: Mitchell: Buley: Where was this Flatrock and who ran that? That was run by the Indianapolis YMCA. It was right about twenty-five miles out of Indianapolis, I guess. Somewhere around the central southern part of the state, around Seymour, Indiana. Yes, uh-huh. `Cause my kids have gone down there. Is that a black camp? Yes, this is black. All black? Yes. That's all I ever saw down there. Do quite a few kids go? Oh, yes. They had how many sessions a year? From here, they usually-- Did very many go from here? Yes. We usually take, at that time it must have been seventy or eighty kids, and they had a number of sessions--well, the kids from Indianapolis were there and quite a few from Gary, all around Indiana. They would go to Flatrock because they liked Flatrock. It was a good camp. They had a good--well, the staff was integrated. They had an integrated staff, black and white staff, and they were good. Real good YMCA people.[01:07:00]28Goodall:Did you ever have any thoughts about Pettijohn or Carlton or the people that ran it here? Was it just the times that created the separation of the Branch and Central Y, or do you feel there were some individuals involved that really weren't ready to make that move? Well, I think it was the times just like being a great [unintelligible] in American period. It was that time element. But A.J. Pettijohn, I thought he was a great YMCA secretary because he used to teach us Bible study in the school.Buley:[01:08:00] I thought that was great. You'd come out from school and give you little stars. And, in fact, my background in the Bible I got from A.J. Pettijohn. He was a good Christian man, and he was a good YMCA secretary. But there still remained, there was a separation between the central branch and the branch downtown there on Madison Street. And Carlton was a nice guy, but there's still that separation. These guys were brilliant people--they had the YMCA knowhow, there's no question about that. But, uh, I--it is kind of hard to forgive them for not working harder toward the integration process. Goodall: [01:09:00] Before Pettijohn died that he had a lot of regrets about not doing something about some of those situations that he could have and should have done. Because I remember, I guess it must have been last WWII and we had a basketball team at the Malleable and we were under the industrial leagues, because if you--playing softball was a common thing, too. Nat Harris, Jack Wright, softball team in the industrial league, and they'd play their games at the Central Y, and so I was the manager of the team, so I'd just went down to announce to the meeting I the paper for the basketball league. I went down, sat I the meeting, told them we wanted to get a team in and all. They looked at me kind of funny and everything, but they didn't say anything that night, and that was [unintelligible]. And then the guys down there--but where they made their mistake--they sent a letter out there to the plant telling them they couldn't accept our team because blacks weren't allowed to play in the gymnasium up there. If they hadn't said it, we wouldn't have been able to do much. [01:10:00] But they typed that letter and sent it out there, and old Ralph Whitinger was real active in the United Way then, and what's the guy's name?--he was president of the board. It's a real funny name. I can't think of it, but anyway, I went around I don't know whether you know it or not--the story is, I think it's pretty accurate--29to all the doors in Whiteley and knocked on doors in Whitely and told people not to take Covalt's milk no more. Buley: Goodall: That's about like you, Hurley. And even went out to the plant and told the guys--the year before, Malleable had pledged twenty two thousand dollars to the United Way--and we went around the plant and came back, and you know the donations had dropped to about five thousand dollars that next year. Yeah, that's right. And they about had a fit about that. It was a couple of years later that they opened the gym facilities up, at least for the leagues. You could play as long as you were in a league?Buley: Goodall: Mitchell: [01:11:00] Buley: Mitchell: Buley:Yes. They started that first. That was the first thing. Just play and get on out-- don't hang around. Just get your basketball over and leave the building. Well, the board members then must have been pretty strongly committed to keep it segregated? Well, that's what the secretary--the general secretary is always "That's the board members." The board members, of course--you get to a board member, and they'll just hunch their back, "After all, I'm not the secretary, you know." So one is playing against the other. That's the type of thing they did. Do--this would, of course, be speculation, but would you imagine that had a secretary tried to make that happen and started to push forward, would he have been given a free hand to do so? No, I don't think he would have. I think the board had their responsibility in keeping it down because, again, the time wasn't right.Mitchell:Buley: [01:12:00]It was going on all over the U.S.--things were going on all over the U.S. It would be different if this integrated thing in Indianapolis or Fort Wayne, which there was, the same type situation going on there as it was here--so, but if it had been different, maybe the secretary could have stuck his neck out. Then their jobs--they say, "Heck, if I get out here, I'll get fired, and I've got a family" and so and so. They were practical. I didn't agree with them, but I guess they did some practical things.30Mitchell:Um-hm. Looking back over the years you sere there and the years that existed, how would you assess the contribution of the branch Y to the black community in Muncie? I think it made quite a contribution. First place, it was a focal point for the community here.Buley: [01:13:00]Really there was no other place for them to go and have a little fun, a little social life. This was it. It was as if everything revolved around the branch YMCA. Just like it was when I went to Evanston, but the only thing, things had changed in Evanston when I got there, but they still wanted to go back and revolve everything around the center. That would be the same as starting a branch over there on Madison Street now and putting everything right together when they can go just about anyplace and do just about anything you want to in Muncie now. With a few exceptions, I guess. But it's so much different now than it was twenty or thirty years ago. Mitchell: What kind of an impact--with the limited facility and not too much, you know, that you could offer--what kind of impact did it have on the youngsters over the long hall?[01:14:00] Buley: Well, the youngsters they got in this grain sort a speak and they never thought anything else about it. We're having fun so--in fact, some of the kids would say, "Would you like to go to the Central branch?" They'd say, "No, what do I want to go up there for? I'm having fun here." Of course, they didn't understand the total thing about it, but that's the way quite a few of them felt: "I don't want to go up there--I'm having fun right here," although their facilities were meager and-- But a lot of them were just as happy, which didn't prove any point which--what not what a secretary who has an outlook on the whole thing, he could see things wasn't going right, but some of the kids said, "We're happy down here. I don't want to go up there"--that type of thing.[01:15:00] Goodall: Mitchell: Buley: I can't think of anything else, Paul? I will in a minute or an hour, I suppose. Well, very good. I know sometimes I'll be at home sleep or laying down resting, a lot of things pass through my mind that I can think of, but now I can't think of them now.31Goodall: Buley: Goodall: [1:16:00] Buley: Goodall: [1:16:15]It's always that way. You'd be surprised how much information. I didn't think I'd be able to recall as much stuff as I have already. We were lucky to catch you here, because no telling when you'll get back this way again. Yeah, that's true. I probably won't be back next year. I usually like to come every year. I'll probably send my wife next year. Uh-uh. I know it has been interesting for Paul to talk to you.End of the interview32
Middletown Digital Oral History Collections
Black Muncie History Project Collection
Ball State University Libraries, Archives and Special Collections
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