Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957), Friday 24 October 1890, page 9


PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY.

THURSDAY, OCT. 23.

The SPEAKER took the chair at half-past

4 o'clock.

DISCOVERY OF THE BENDIGO GOLD

HELD.

Mr. BAILES presented the report of the select committee appointed to consider the claim of Henry Frencham, as the discoverer of the Bendigo gold field.

PAPERS.

The following papers were laid on the table Railway Loan Act-estimates 01 ci.penditare a return moved for by Mr. Munro, relative to unexpended balance of loan.

FLOODS ON THE GOULBURN.

Mr WILLIAMS moved for a return showing the names of property holders whose holdings will be affected through the flooding of their lands by the erection of the Goulburn weir ; the number of ncri'B affected in each case ; the amount of money to be paid to each individual ; the title the Water Supply department will hold for such

lands

Colonel SMITH seconded the motion. Agreed to.

YEA RIVER SELECT COMMITTEE. Mr MUNRO moved

" That the select committee on the Yea River Company have leave to report the minutes and evidence

from time to time "

Colonel SMITH seconded the motion. Agreed to.

RAILWAYS STANDING COMMITTEE

Mr. BENT reported that the Standing Committee on Railways and held a preliminary meeting, and appointed himself he chairman, and Mr. Zeal as vice chairman The House would be pleased to receive that the committee had begun its labours in the most harmonious manner possible, and he felt sure that the committee had the good wishes of hon members generally. (Hear, hear.)

THANKS TO THE CHIEF JUSTICE.

Mr. GILLIES moved

"That this House records its high sense and appreciation of the valuable services rendered to the people of this colony by His Honour the Chief Justice, George Higlnti.tliatn, Esq in undertaking and BiiocLRslultv oaTj ting out the great work of consolidating the statute- law of the colony "

He believed that in submitting this motion he had the entire sympathy of the Doune. (Hear, hear.) The career of the Chief Justice had been a great one, and all parties, whether opposed to him on other grounds or not, would admit that he had striven to do his best for the interests of the colony in whatever position he had been placed (Hear, hear ). In addition to his arduous labours as Chief Justice the latter gentleman had now carried out a great work which he was not called upon in any way to perform, and he had carried it out in as sin inflicto, y a manner as it was possible for any man to do it (Cheers ) One or two clips of a purely technical nature had been found in the consolidated acts, but they were not such as to affect in the slightest degree the immense public importance of the work which the Chief Justice had performed. It was scarcely possible for any man, or any body of men, to have done the work in a better or grander manner than he had done, (Cheers ) So far us perfection was attainable meatworker such intricacy and magnitude, the Chief Justice had assumed it. (Hear,

hear.)

Mr. MUNRO had very great pleasure in seconding the motion, and he was sure that the House would unanimously support it. (Hear, hear.) He knew of no gentleman who could have gone into this work with such great determination or single mindedness to do what was right us the Chief Justice, and he had the gratitude of the whole colony for

the work he had done.

The motion was carried with acclama-tion, and ordered to be sent to the Legislative Council, and Us concurrence thereon

denied,

Mr GILLIES moved

" That the clerk be instructed to place this resolution on record as having been passed under

mously."

Agreed to.

DEBENTURES CONVERSION BILL.

The House having gone into committee, Mr GILLIES moved

" That an appropriation be made out of the can solidated revenue for the purposes of a bill to provide for the conversion of debentures into Motor! in his scribed stock '

hon. members, he artist, had already been in formed that on the 1st January next the last of our C per cent debentures, to the ninnniH of ibDOOOO, would full life in London for some time past the Agent General had been in communication with some of the beat financial an til on the in London as to certain

proposals that were recommended for the consideration of the Government These were to the effect that when certain loans (fell due, instead of issuing new farms to take their place, an effort should, if possible, be made to induce persons who were at present holders of debentures to exchange those debentures for inscribed stock at 32 percent 'This was not the time to follow out the very long and forcible argument in which gentleman of distinguished financial position in London had expressed his views on the subject, but he strongly recommended

that instead of raising a new loan to meet the payment of those debentures which fell due in London on the 1st January next, an set should be passed to enable those debentures to be converted into Jj inscribed Victorian stock The first communication that the Government received expressed the belief that if this were done at least three fourths of the debentures would be taken up in that time The same thing had been done by the Government of Cape Colony, and the success it met with justified this expectation As hon. members knew, inscribed stock held a higher position in tin market, other things being equal, than any debentures Since then, however, further information had been received to the effect that, in consequence of the perturbed state of the London money market, owing to a variety of causes, Very little of the stock was likely to be com er ted on this occasion He had obtained information from a variety of quarters with the result that this opinion was strongly supported, so that in asking the House to pass this bill, he did not wish it to

be misled into the belief that anything like a considerable proportion of the outstanding debentures would be converted under it. It would be necessary also to insert a provision in the bill so that if the conversion should prove to be only partial, the unconverted

dance might be dealt with by loan in the ordinary way In regard to the bill of which he had already given notice for the £1, (100 OOO loan that had still to be floated, it was proposed to place it in exactly the same position as the present bill in regard to redemption live present conversion bill had this other peculiarity, that instead of fixing the term of years at 34 or 35 years, is had been the cm tom, it was proposed, on advice from home, that the term should be 50 years redeemable after 30 years, on giving 12 months notice

'J hut was a great advantage over the present Bietern, because when his term as hitherto was absolute!, fixed at 30 or 35 years the loan must be paid off at the time it matured whether the Government liked it or not, and without regard to whether the market was favourable or unfavourable Uu 1er the new system, if at the expiration of 30 years the market should be unfavourable to the float-ing of a loan to pay off the debentures which then matured, the Government need not take up the debentures, but c uhl postpone doing so for any period from one to 20 years so as to make sure of issuing the loan to redeem the debentures at is that when the money market was most favourable '1 hut was the reason why the provision had been in-served in the bill enabling the Government to redeem the debentures at any time after the expiration of 10 years up to 50 years on giving the holders 12 months' notice if it was thought that the market was favourable to fl at a new loan to pay off the old one, the Government had proposed in a bill, of which he had given notice, to place the balance of £1,000,000 remaining out of the last authorised loan in the same position, giving the debentures a currency of not less than 30 years nor more than 50, with the option of being taken up during the interval of 20) car son giving the holders 12 months'

notice

Mr LAURENS-What will be about the date on which you will issue that £1,00,000

loan?

Mr GILLIES-The debentures will run from the 1st January next. The conversion of the loan of £850,000 might be done immediately before the lot January, and, it so, it will run from that date, because the £850000 debentures do not full in mind that date 'The holders of those debentures would then be entitled to have issued to them 31, percent stock in lieu of the 0 per cent debentures they now held so that the dates of both 5th would be the some it as quite possible that the state of the London market might be such at the beginning of next year us to render it undesirable

to float any portion of the £850,000 loan which could not be converted by the let January, or any part of the proposed loan of £1000,000, but the state of the market was such that it might change in one, two or three months It was difficult to predict what would be the state of the market in two or three months' time, as it frequently) changed very suddenly, but it would be the duty of the Government to obtain the very best advice that could be got as to he best and most suitable time for floating a new loan consisting of whatever part of the loan of £850,000 remained uncon-verted into 31 percent stock, and the balance

of £1,000,000 remaining out of the authorised loan of £4,000,000 Those two amounts would be joined together, and would constitute a new loan, and it would be for the Government to select the most opportune time early next year to float it. That was the object of this bill

Mr. MUNRO said that he was in rather an awkward position with regard to this matter, as anything that was said in the House with regard to the claim of the colony was apt to be seized! upon by the carping critics in London. He was afraid that the holders of the 6 per cent, debentures which would fall in on 1st January next would not agree to their c inversion into 31 percent, stock, so that Parliament would have to look the matter in the face, because the banks would have in that case to provide the money necessary to pay off all thus, debentures, that were

not converted

Mr. GILLIES That is all arranged.

Mr. MUNRO It was a most unfortunate circumstance that £850,000 of an old loan and £1,000,000 of a new loan, making altogether a new loan of £2,450,000, had to be placed on the London market at a time when it was not at all favourable The New South Wales Legislature did its business with regard to the authorising and floating of loans in a different way from that which we followed. In that colony n nil) on ty was given by Parliament to the Government to elicit a large loan which would do for some few years, leaving it to the discretion of the Government to Host from time to time what portions of it. It thought desirable to meet the re quirements of the colony. Here, however, loans were authorised in dribbles, and loan bills were continually coming before the House session after session The result wristlet each time a new loan bill was brought down it gave the carping critics in London an opportunity of referring to our borrowing, and doing all they could todothec"loti) harm This conversion of the loan of 1850,000 might have been foreseen, and been provided for in the bill p taxed last session authorising the loan of £1 000 000 It that had been done, those critics would not have know II now that which they would have to be made acquainted with us to the present state of our finances, and it was unfortunate that improper use was made by them of statements made in the House. Of course, it was only right to PUBS the bill, but he did not believe there was the slightest chance of converting the whole of the £-50,000 loan into 4 per cent

stock.

Mr. GILLIES Neither do I.

Mr. MUNRO.-The other evening I said that the Government would not have any money with which to make new railways next year but the Premier interjected that that

was not correct

Mr GILLIES -There is some misapprehension on that point I do not contemplate, nor does any hon. member conplate, that a large number of railway lines will be authorised this session, What was expected was that some two or three lines would be passed, and he expenditure on them convent would not amount to more than £250,000 Some persons imagined that I proposed to ask the House to authorize a new loan for railway purposes. I never had any such idea.

Mr. ZOX -And you are quite right not to make any such request

Mr L L. SMITH - Then it is clear that we cannot go on with the railways.

Mr. MUNRO said that in the return laid on the table that evening it was shown that the total amount to the credit of the public account at the bank on the 11th mat, was £95!),7. while the amount of the trust funds was i-,012 505 Of this latter sum, however, there was l%5,885 invested, leaving a balance of £1,070,()79 It the amount standing to the credit of the public account was taken into consideration with the balance of £1,070,670, it would be seen at once that the trust funds had been drawn on to the extent of £700,000 In addition to that the Government had used up the money intended for irrigation works

Mr. GILLIES.-That is standing to the credit of the irrigation loan account

Mr. MUNRO.-There ought to be £S0r>,40a to the credit of that account When he last spoke on this subject the Treasurer had con-tradicted him and had endeavoured to lead the House to suppose that there was plenty of money available for railway purposes. The Premier had stated that £_"i0,000 would be required for any new railway lines, authorised this session, but the existing liabilities of the Railway department on contracts let was £1,072,000, and then there had to be taken into account the li ibiline. to be met by the new loan of £2,150,000 to be floated next year.

Mr. GILLIES Do you imagine that the new loan will not float next year?

Mr. MUNRO According to the information I have From a good source I don't believe it can be successfully floated next

year,

Mr. GILLIES.-That is not the opinion of all the authorities.

Mr. MUNRO-If the Government was willing to sacrifice the credit of the colony, of course it could float anything. If the Government were compelled to float the new loan while the market was unfavourable, there would be a change in the London market with respect to our stock that would not do the colony an) credit The statement be made the other evening about there being no money available to construct any new railways next year was absolutely true, because it was clear the Government had not got the money required for that purpose, and had no prospect of getting it

Mr. GILLIES will take an opportunity of reviewing your statement when submitting the statement with reference to railway loan expenditure.

Mr. ZOX trusted that the Premier would have the statement laid on the table, at the instance of the leader of the Opposition, concerning the state of the public finances printed for the information of the members and others. Unless that was done inaccurate statements regarding the condition of the finances of the colony might be circulated which might do it harm.

Mr. GILLIES.-I have no objection to having it printed and circulated.

Mr. ANDREWS thought that the negotiating of future loans should be left in the hands of the associated banks instead of in the hands of the London and Westminster Bank. The associated banks had to be relied upon to come to the rescue of every loan floated in London, and they were really the promoters of our best interests in the past They were, in fact, the mainstay of our loans in London, and if it could be made worth their while to do our business on equitable terms, so as to prevent the "bears" of the Stock Exchange manipulating the loans, it would be greatly to the advantage of the colony. Notwithstanding the failure of negotiations with the associated banks a few years ago, which occurred over a matter connected with only one of them, now was the time to bring the business again under their notice and give them an opportunity of distinguishing themselves. 'I they would, it was certain, do their best, and the interests of the colony would not suffer in their hands.

Mr. LAURENS considered that the hon. member for East Melbourne was quite right in asking that the public should know the best and worst of our position. We had everything to gain and nothing to lose by stating it fully before the public, and we could not fail to be injured by the appearance of concealing anything. If, therefore, the

return laid on the table of the House did BIIDW what our financial position was, or was likely to be a large amount of good

would be achieved.

Mr l_tLLIi-S.-That will need to be supplemented with a good deal of other in

formation.

Mr. LAURENS had asked about the date of issue because he had understood that if partial failure might be expected with regard to the conversion of this £850,000 loan by 1st January, and he gathered from the Premier that arrangements had been made to tide us over any such difficulty hon. members must be reminded, however, that we had to redeem no less than £9,000,000 of debentures in 188! 15, and we provided for that long before the claim had to be met, but the present transaction was being discussed within two months of the time the money must be found in London. The House should have been asked to pass this measure long before the present time (Hear, hear.) The Treasurer stated that he had information that Cape Colony had to redeem debentures hearing a

high rate of interest or exchange them for Block at a lesser rate, but there was no doubt that this financial arrangement was open to the debenture holders for a far longer period. The debentures must have been of a currency that had not expired or was not about to expire so soon as ours.

Mr, GILLIES.-They were about to expire.

Mr. LAURENS. Like our own?

Mr. GILLIES.-They had a little longer

time.

Mr. LAURENS supposed they must have had more time to run, or the operation would not have been successful, as the consent of every debenture-holders must be obtained,

Mr. GILLIES.-The hon. member surely forgetting that it the holders have arranged before 1st January, when they fall due, to exchange these (i per cent, debentures for 3½ percent, bonds, the debentures will be exchanged for others on 1st January.

Mr, LAURENS understood that, but meant that we could not force the holders of deben-tures maturing on 1st January against their

will

Mr. GILLIES,-We do not want to.

Mr. LAURENS was right, therefore, in saying that consent was necessary to the exchange, and as the holders would have very little information at best in the interval, we were not justified in assuming that they would be willing.

Sir BRYAN O'LOGHLEN congratulated

the Treasurer upon-the principle which he had carried out in this measure, and I congratulated him for his reason that imitation was the sincerest Hatter) The 'Treasurer had imitated a measure introduced by his Government in 1882. He had to congratulate the Treasurer on his conversion because when that measure was introduced (he hon member was strongly opposed to it The hon

member said it was a peculiar way to meet the obligations of the colony and aided with all other members of the House will then make 1 the House to alter the redemption plan and to provide a sum of money so that every holder of a 100 debenture would get £100 in cash in the London market. The hon member was afraid that the credit of the colon, would be affected by this peculiar method of paying our debts There was one matter in which the Treasurer did not imitate his G veril

ment and that was in giving to the H raise sufficient information from time to time as to be in the nut The accounts stood He particularly, referred to the loan accounts In his time he alter. s muted members whose quireditifoimntimitogn'otheun 1er treasurer and instructed that cheer to place when over informants in was required at the disposal of hon members If the Treasurer could not find time to supply this information to the House he could authorise the under treasurer to give the information to any hon. member who denied it The less secrecy there was about the public accounts the better. It was reticence on the parco the treasurer, and consequent darkness on the part of the house and the country that resulted in all the im-broglie over the Surplus Now was the time for the Treasurer to give the House a demand precise knowledge on the subject of the loan accounts The Treasurer ought to let the House know how the loan accounts stood what he intended to raise fund to let them know exactly how the public account stood

Mr LA VIEN thought it was quite impossible that the treasurer could sell our 3 per cents, at par and he thought the House would not approve of their being sold under par If our stocks rose to anything approach mg par this stock would all be absorbed He did not think the proposal contained in clause 1 of the bill was a very good one-the proposal which enabled the Government to pay off these bonds after 10 years We would

have to pay more for that than it was worth

The Treasurer had said that in this matter be late 1 on the best legal advice but this provision would not enable the Treasurer to obtain as high a price for stock as the prove sions in regard to previous loans would. If the period were made to terminate absolutely at 30 years it would he all right. This provision might well be left out

The resolution was agreed to, reported to the House and agreed to

Mr GILLIES moved the second reading of the Debentures Conversion Bill

Mr RICHARDSON thought that the Treasurer would have taken this opportunity of civ me some information on the state of the finances

Mr GILLIES -It does not come in on this bill at all

Mr RICHARDSON-ThiB bill involved the getting g of money in a certain way, and he thought the Treasurer would have taken he opportunity of making some statement in reply to the remarks already made respecting the state of the finances

Mr GILLirS-I have given notice to night of the expenditure of money in connection with railway construction, and when that comes on will be the proper time to make reference to the accounts

Mr RICHARDSON and the Treasurer intend to have the stock debentures converted into stock through some agency?

Mr GILL. I S -1 through the agency of the London and Westminster Bank

Mr RICHARDSON-Was that the wisest plan for this country to adopt ' Would it not

a wise for this colony to have an agency of

its own '

Mr GILLIES said the agreement was made some years ago with the London and West minute- Bank to take the position which the bank now held, and the arrangement could not be dis- urged without giving the bank notice the proposal the hon member spoke of would require great consideration, and from all he had read he was afraid it would not answer This, however was an opinion which he had not formed an a fixed

opinion

The motion was agreed to and the bill was

committed

GIOUBB 1 was agreed to

On clause 2 " Power to issue stock and to exchange debentures for such Block,

Mr GILLIES wished to move an amendment in this clause, which was designed primarily to provide for the conversion of the debentures but at the same time it was also contemplated that in the event of the whole of the debentures not being converted into St per cent stock another course would have to be adopted to dispose of them and in looking over this clause there was a doubt expressed as to whether it was quite clear that the Government would have power to authorise the disposal of what was not taken up by issuing it in the same way as they had issued other stock and in order to make that perfectly safe if it was proposed to insert the following words - 1

In the event of the holder of any of the said de bonuses not exchanging the same the Treasurer of A victoria may from time to time sell the stock to the same out of the debentures not so exchanged

Mr AlUMiO thought it ought to be made clear that this stock was not to be disposed of in small parcels.

Mr GILLIES said there was no difference between this and other loans Mr

RICHARDSON wished to know if the stock were sold was it intended to cover the debentures in hand or to be an addition to them?

Mr GILLIES -It would take the place of the debentures that would fall due on the 1st of January The amount of the loan would be the same, but it would pay less in

terest

Sir BRYAN OF OHLEN asked what was the price of the Victorian 3 per cent stock on the London market at the present time Mr

GILLIES believed it was 1 per cent

below par A little while ago it was 18 per cent below There had been a revolution not only in Victorian stock but in other stocks It was well known that there was a number of financial and bird ing cam p lines in Australasia which had borrowed large sums of money from England at 4 4s, and 41 per cent for short periods of three to five years It there was such extraordinary borrowing what chance had the Victorian Government going into a disturbed 1 market with 3½ percent ? When persons interested in South American stocks had settled down after the disturbances the market would be brought to its normal condition, and it we could only end those miserable strikes there would be no fear of the Government being able to successfully float its loans

Sir BRYAN O LOUGHLIN -Having made the offer of conversion it will be accepted, or nearly so but if there is any deficiency the Government is going to pay cash for that deficiency '

Mr GILLIES Certainly

Sir BRYAN O LOGHLLN -And whatever debentures there are over will be sold together with the million and a half

The clause was agreed to as also all the remaining, clauses, and the bill was reported to the House and passed through its remain ing etudes

THE ESTIMATES

The House went into Committee of Supply to further consider the Estimates, resuming with the department of Crown Lands

On the item " Survey and management of Crown lands, £71,912,"

Sir BRYAN O'LOGHLEN called attention to the case of a selector at Casterton who could not get possession of the land which had been legally given to him there must be some difficulty in the department which should be dealt with.

Mr. L L. SMITH said the Minister had signed a statement agreeing to give a rent wal of the lease of the Elsternwick race-course to the authorities, but although a large sum of money had been spent on the place the Minister would not promise to re-new the lease. He (the hon. member for Mornington) wanted no evasive answer on this question. The hon, Minister had yielded to backstairs influence, exerted by members of the Upper House. A piece of waste land had in this case been turned into a beautiful place on the strength of the signature of the Minister.

The CHAIRMAN said this matter would arise at asub«equentatage.

'The item was agreed to.

On the item " State forests and nurseries, £17,78,"

Mr. W. T. CARTER understood that the House was to hear what had been done in regard to some friction that was said to exist between the working of the Lands department and the Mines department in regard to the granting of leases.

Mr. DOW understood that some simple legislation would bring about the necessary amendment in the act. If an amendment was necessary, step. would be taken to bring it about at the earliest opportunity,

In reply to Mr. C, YOUNG,

Mr. DOW said that at the earliest possible moment all the papers in connection with the Mildura land would be laid before the House.

Mr. RICHARDSON said a great deal of hardship arose from the friction alluded to by the hon. member for Williamstown, and the sooner the hon Minister and the matter before his colleagues the better it would be for all parties.

Mr. GROOM said there was a large number of cases in West Gippsland, and also in South Gippsland, where selectors had taken up land under the act of 1861 and after two,

three, or four years were unable to get a malefactor) title owing to mining objections. The two departments ought to meet and come to some definite arrangement on this

matter,

Mr. W. T. CARTER said that instances had come under his own notice of the bad effects of the friction that took place between the Lands department and the Mining department. The hindrances offered to hard-working men in getting their land were very vexatious indeed, and were bad policy from a public point of view.

Mr. T. SMITH knew of a case similar to that mentioned by the hon member for West Gipps- and, where great hardship had been caused through the manner in which business was transacted between the Lands department and the Mining department. The position of affairs was not at all satisfactory, and Borne change should be at once brought Allnut. The matter was mentioned in the House last year, but nothing had yet been

done A common sense business understanding should be arrived at between the two departments which would avoid in future the trouble to which the public was now put.

Mr. DOW said that under the Land Act 1884 people were invited to apply for land, 'The Lands department heard nothing of the applications until they were recommended by the land boards, and the question then came whether there was any objection from the Mining department Since the coal districts had been prospected the trouble had been increased, and there was no urgent need of something being done to prevent the moneyance to winch applicants for and were put

(Hear, hear.) The policy of the Lands department was to get as many people as possible on the land. He would do his very best to press upon his colleagues the adoption of some practical steps by which the exist-ing state of things might be altered. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. L L SMITH asked whether it was possible for any private individual who wished to plant trees along a main road in any outlying district, to obtain the trees from the state forest nurseries.

Mr. DOW said that the nurseries were at present able to supply the requirements of public bodies only, but the supply of trees was being increased, and he hoped that the department would soon be in a position to meet cases such as that to which the hon. member had referred.

Mr M F IN hoped that the Minister would take step to obviate the delays which occurred in issuing leases to selectors, especially where there were no mining objections to the land being leased. He believed that the survey) branch of the department was responsible for those delays

Mr BENNETT trusted that the Minister would favourably) take into consideration the advisability of placing a sum of money on the Estimates for the family of the late Mr. E. M. Curr, who was for many years the chief inspector of stock That gentleman had published a book on the Australian race which was of value, and there were exceptional circumstances surrounding his cute A sum of money was voted to the family of the late Mr Le Cren, the late secretary for Public Works, last

session,

Mr. J. HARRIS hoped the Minister would carry out the suggestion made in the excellent report of the conservator of forests that steps should be taken to train our own foresters, and to prevent the shameful waste of timber in the forests by sleeper hewers and by splitters. He thought the conservator should have more power to deal with those

persons.

Mr. MUNRO stated that as some doubt had been thrown by the officers of the Lands department on the statement be made to the committee last week that he had seen men splitting timber within the watershed area of the River Watts, he desired to repeat that statement. 'the department had endeavoured to wriggle out of the charge by saying that the men were trespassing, and that their trespass had been inadver-tent, as they were working close to the boundary on a plateau, where it was hard to define the boundary from the contour of the country. He wished to say from his personal knowledge that those men to whom he referred were splitting within the watershed area, about three-quarters of a mile from the boundary, in the tin neat part of the Black Spur. It was all humbug to say that they were " only a few yards " inside the boundary.

Mr. MASON said that the department should do something to destroy the wild dogs and wallabies in the Mount Fatigue state forest in South Gippsland, us the former killed the sheep and the latter are the grass of the settlers there. In the Gippsland district and some others great difficulty existed with regard to selectors getting agricultural licenses owing to the conflict between the Mines and Lands departments. Applications under the 32nd section of the Lands Act had been hung up for years in consequence, and the only cure was to amend the fifth section of the Lands Act, so as to provide that holders of a miner's right or lease should be able to mine under pastoral lands not only for gold but for other minerals. This would not only encourage mining, but also facilitate settlement.

Mr. DUNN approved of the suggestion just made in the interests both of miners and selectors, and would certainly support such an amendment of the Lands Act it the Minister would introduce it.

Mr 'PATCHELL desired to draw the attention of the Minister of Lands to the heavy license fee which was charged for cutting ironbark In some forests the ground was strewn with pomona of old ironbark trees, which only served as a harbour for vermin, and the woodcutters desired to be allowed to remove this timber for their ordinary license fee of £1 a quarter.

Sir BRYAN O'LOGHLEN wished to urge upon the Minister that a special sum should be placed upon the Estimates in recognition of the services of the late Mr, Curr, chief inspector of stock, which had been alluded to by the hon, member for Richmond. When Mr. Curr was appointed people ridiculed the idea that scab could be ex-terminated, but by his vigorous exertions within a few years the whole colony was clean, and the example had been followed in other colonies, so that now the whole 80,000,000 of sheep in Australia were free from the disease. Mr, Curr had also devoted his spare time to studying the language of the aboriginals, and had published a book which would become a most valuable work. Such services deserted more recognition than the nine months' guy that had been awarded Mr. Curr's family.

Mr. W T. CARTER said a complaint had been made by the hon. member for South Yarra that the conservator of forest. had not sufficient power, but certain facts that were known indicated that Mr Perrin was likely to make a very free use of power, and that it would be dangerous to give him more. In the appointment of foresters, which Mr. Perrin took into his own hands, he ignored the claims of those young men who had duly qualified themselves, and took an intelligent scientific interest in forestry, in favour of other unqualified persons One well qualified man he had placed at Dandenong at wages below what would be suitable for the men he had to direct

Mr. ZOX would strongly support the appeal that had been made for a further recognition of the late Mr. Curr's services. For the admirable book he had compiled on the aborigines he refused at the time to accept remuneration, saying it was a labour of love.

Mr. OFFICER asked whether any decision had been arrived at with regard to the land at Murra Murra, which was reserved for water supply purposes in connection with the Wimmera Irrigation Trust A great many people had taken up selections there, but were not allowed to occupy, pending settlement of the question as to the water supply The site, it was understood, had now been abandoned for one further down the river, so there was no reason why the lands referred to should be withheld longer from the selectors. He would also like to know what steps were being taken to preserve the state forests from their only two enemies, here and stock It was no use whatever having state forests if they were to be exposed to the fires and the in-roads of stock,

Mr BAKER saw no reason why these selectors should not get their land now. There were no better lands for grazing purposes, and these men had spent a lot of money on them

Mr, GORDON was very much pleased with the reply of the Minister of Lands to the hon. member for South Gippsland in reference to the Lands and Mines departments Had the Minister of Lands observed the statements that had been made about the destruction of timber in the state forests near the Goulburn when the police were drawn away from the place lately ? If the timber could be destroyed in that way, it said very little for the _nunii(.cuicnt of the state forests

Mr. L L. SMITH said there was a very large reserved Kilcunda which was now used for grazing purposes It was worth £15 or £20 an acre, and it sold would cause a large population to settle there, and the money received from the sale of the land would go a long: way towards paying for the railway that it was proposed to construct from Is') ora to Kilcunda

Mr J HARRIS considered Mr Perrin was an officer who ought to be encouraged in his work, and did not think it right to refer to him in connection with the case now being inquired into He would certainly support the hon. member for Richmond in any action he might take in reference to Mr Curr, the late chief inspector of stock,

Mr. DIXON said great loss had been sustained by the state in consequence of the Murra Murra reserve having been locked up

in expectation of some people using it as a w uer reserve A (re a portion of the valley ward not feed one sheep to 20 acres but there was a portion of it covered with wattle bark and he hoped the Minister would take steps t li give it thrown open to the public so that it might be put to its proper use

Mr 1 LMJUIOV quite agreed with the remarks of the new member for South Yarra in regard to Mr Perrin who was a thorough enthusiast in his work The lion mern her for W illiani-.tovvn should make sure that the facts were correct before attacl tug such

officers

sir BUY AN O LOGITLl N said reference hi> 1 been made to the friction between the Mining department and the Lands department and there was a doubt friction existed The Munster should bring in a shirt ball of two or three clauses ciiablingstrictcovenanta to be put in leases pr ii ling that those in possession of the land should not be able to claim for any injury to the surface or injury to the land from working it underground and that the Government should give free access i to lan) to mine for any miner ii

Mr W TO all LI ft, sure that the case he referred to was the case of Mr F W Wilson now residing in South Australia who had fulfilled all the conditions required by the acre, but over whose head other men had been appointed

Mr RICHARDSON said the Forestry department should be connected with the Public Service Board by whom the men ah mill be engaged, paid, and, if necessary dispense ' with

Mr 1 rRGUSOV sold the matter referred to by melon member for Williamtown should have been placed before Mr Perrin before being introduced to the House.

Mr. URrN i ed nearly all the 32nd section leases in Gipps- and referred to 1 and that was thickly covered v it h scrub and small timber How was it possible to go on the land and dear it of vermin without authority to cut the small timber down The

item was agreed to.

On the item Public parks gardens, and

reserves £0 481

Mr L L SMITH asked for an explanation of the refusal of renewal of their use of the Elsternwick park course after a consent to a renewal had been initialed by the Minister

Mr DOW said this was a very old case The present lease did not expire for some years The trustees now desired a renewal to justify them in laying more money out on the racecourse Some difficulty however had arisen with the municipal bodies of I Elsternwick and Brighton, it being feared that the rights of the people in this land as a recreation park might be interfered with

Mr J. L SMITH -there is no difficulty The municipalities have agreed to to

Mr DOW -There was a difficulty about renewing the lease so many years in advance, and it had been arranged to leave the matter until the present lease had expired The gentlemen forming the company had agreed to

this

Mr L L SMITH Nothing of the sort

Mr DOW promised to look carefully into the matter and would deal with it at the end of the three years the lease had yet to run it he were then in office (Laughter)

Mr J HARRIS suggested that all the parks and gardens might be brought more properly under the agricultural estimates

Mr GARDINER asked whether the now curator whom it was proposed to appoint for the public gardens would be appointed under the Public Service regulations and be under the control of the Minister of Lands There was a desire on the part of the City Council and the parks and gardens committee to have the officer under their control, in consequence of the present curator having refused to give them some information, on the ground that he was an officer of the

Crown

Mr DOW said certain parks and gardens in the metropolis were vested in a joint com-mutes of the city corporation and the Board of Land and Works the city contributing £3,000 a year and the department £6 000 Mr Bickford, the present curator was about to retire on account of his age and the Public Service Board was to be asked to appoint a modern arboriculture as his successor and also to act as Crown lands I ail iff there would be too much for one man and it had been arranged that the joint committee should appoint a man at something like £300 a year to manure the parks vested in the committee, and be under their control

Mr GARDINER urged that the northern portion of the t. triton "orders which had been closed for the Exhibition should now be thrown open It was also high time that the request of the people of Carlton should be granted, and a portion of Prince a pork be given to them for recreation purposes It was to be hoped that the Minister would confer with the Board of Land and Works and the Parks and Gardens Committee and have some arrangement made that would meet the wishes of the inhabitants

Mr J H\RRISsaid that the statement of the hon. member for North Carlton was somewhat misleading. He (Mr. Harris) was a member of the Parks and Gardens Committee and knew that a considerable part of Prince's park was already set apart for recreation purposes The committee was opposed however, to portions of these parks being permanently

reserved for the use of particular clubs It was inundated every sprint, with applications from cricket clubs for similar

concessions

Mr. GARDINER said that the Carlton football club had been allowed for years to erect a 3ft 6in. fence around the enclosure during the six, months of the season, but as soon as the season was over they were obliged to take the fence down. The consequence of this was that the improvements which were made to the ground during the season were quite thrown away, for cows were allowed to graze over the park, and the year's work was destroyed. The Carlton club was the largest in Melbourne, and yet it had no ground to which it could invite other clubs, and none of the conveniences which all the other leading clubs enjoyed. Since the application was first made two acres of the park had been granted for a bowling green and lawn tennis court, and this enclosure had been permanently) fenced. .

Mr. METHVEN agreed that the Prince'spark should be thrown open to the public. At present it was fenced off into squares by high fences, and it was quite impossible for the public to pass through it. It was said that the City Council derived £1,000 a year from persons who were allowed to grave their cattle on the park, and it had no right to receive a shilling from such a source.

Mr. J. HARRIS explained that although the roads through the park had his en torr_ic<l, they were not yet made, and that was why the park was not yet fully opened. The roads were about two miles in length, and would cost £2,000 or £3,000 to complete. The trustees were going to ask the Government for a sum of money to metal the roads, so that the park might be thrown open for light vehicular traffic.

Mr. DOW said that the park was under the joint control of the City Council and the Board of Land and Works, and that the Government had the utmost confluence in that body.

Mr. METHVEN.-Yes ; the Government has confidence in the Board of Land and Works, but the public has not (Laughter.)

Mr. DOW. However, I shall consider it my duty to take a very careful note(daughter) of what has been said

Mr. LAURENS thought that the people residing on the north side of the Yarra had not had that fair treatment which the people of the south side had received with regard to the recreation reserves. He believed that Parliament would be ready to pass legislation which might be necessary to more clearly sanction a fair and impartial administration of the public reserves around Melbourne.

Mr. LANGRIDGE hoped that the Minister would place a sum of money on the Supplementary Estimates to assist the Collingwood council in beautifying Darling-gardens. Whatever not had been expended on those gardens so far had come out of the funds of the council.

Mr. DOW,-I will consider it I don't know anything about the matter at present.

Mr LANGRIDGE Why, it was brought under your notice some time ago.

The item was agreed to.

On the item, Expenses carrying out the Land Tax Act, £1,910,

Mr. GORDON asked if it was the intention of the Government to bring a bill to amend the Land Tax Act. In many cases injustice had been done by the land being wrongly classified, and as the act at present stood it was impossible to obtain any remedy,

Mr. DOW said that he would look into the matter.

The item was agreed to.

On the item, "Extirpation of rabbits and wild animals, £39,755,"

Mr, MUNRO said that some persons who were trying their best to get rid of the rabbits on their property, but who could not destroy the whole of them at once, had been so harassed by the inspector, who had a " down " on them that they threatened to throw up their selections.

Mr. DOW I will inquire into it

Mr. MADDEN remarked that desperate cases required desperate remedies. It was necessary to take string at measures; to get rid of the rabbit pest. No doubt there were case, where hardship had been inflicted by compelling persons to destroy the rabbit., but he had no hesitation in saying that the bill passed last session had practically got nth i of the pest

1 Mr. OFFICER considered that the Government,

in granting money to shire councils for the erection of wire fences, should have seen

that the selections were fenced in in groups

as was promised Instead of that being done individual or some two or three holdings had been fenced in, and the consequence was that the fencing had not gone far enough to be effective It was necessary that more land should be enclosed and he would rush whether a sum would be placed on the supple-mentary estimates for the purchase of more

wire netting

Mr B VKl R approve i of more money being placed at the ship s dot the shires for erecting wire fences Until a larger area of 1 and was fenced in and the holders of the land made to destroy the rabbit, within those fences the pest would never be got rid of

Mr HALL asked for more detailed information r specting the item I expenses gene

rally £82 000

Mr DUNN thou,! that the Government should take steps to destroy the rabbits on reere ition reserves inste t of the trustees being compelled to do so as they had no

funds to carry out the work

Mr DOW soil this item had always been stated as General but more details 1 mfor motion always appeared in the formal report from the Lands department the act pass 1 last session was acknowledged to be really coping with the rabbit pest. It was lamentable to be faced year by year as used to be the case with a sum on the Estimates

varying from 18 000 to £24 000 for rabbit destruction, and with complaints at the same time that the rabbits were not diminishing but increasing One main feature of the act had been to relieve shire councils from the duty of enforcing the law as it was considered that the inspectors could not met with so free a hand while they were paid officials of the slaveholders themselves. The department now employed 05 inspectors and 10 assistant inspectors, besides a body of 200 men to keep the rabbits do vn and although the vote this year was £32 000 it was expected that the operation of the act would shortly enable the working expenses to be greatly reduced

Mr MURPHY had heard corner Iainta from owners of land abutting on Bullarook forest which seemed to be a den for vermin Mount Warrenheip was in a similar position some time ago but had been improved by wire net fencing and it was to be hoped that Bull rock forest would also be fenced

The item was agreed to

On the item Miscellaneous £159 288

Mr BAK1 R asked for an explanation as to the sum >t 5000 for cost of making wells and compensation for improvements in the main ee country

Mr DOW said this money was really being expented in resuming mallee land to be cut up for selection and the expenditure would by a partly recouped

The Hem was agreed to

In the estimates of the Commissioner for Public Works the item ' Public Works was 440 was agreed to

the estimates of the department of the Commissioner of Customs were then considered

On the item Trade and Customs,

£77 wool

Mr LANGRIDGE desired to refer to papers which had been furnished regarding the appointment of Mr Dawson, a landing surveyor Some years ago a new office was created called the inspector of stores, and this officer was given it although he could ill be spared from the Customs department Another vacancy however had now occurred by the he id landing surveyor of the department leaving and Mr Dawson it appeared had asked to be allowed to go back into the department thus stopping the promotion of other i officers Memoranda from the Commissioner of Customs to the Public Service Board clearly showed that Mr Smart, another officer had the requisite qualifications for the vacant post, and that the officers at present in the department were the most service able as having mastered the details of the new tariff but these represent tons had no effect upon the Public service Board Mr Dawson won a good officer but not better than those he had supplanted He left the department in order to advance him self and had no right to go back to it when ever it suite 1 him on his own dictum

Mr PAriFRbONsud that the difficulty in the matter was that they had a very ex excellent officer in Mr Smart A vacancy had however been created for Mr Dawson also and they were able to accommodate him whilst retaining Mr Smart The de

partment was satisfied at the way the differ, cult had been settled They retained the services of Mr Smart where they desired to keep him and they had also got Mr Dawson who was an excellent officer, and the department had now a supremely good staff of landing surveyors

Mr LANGRIDGE.-Will Mr Smartandthe other officers get their promotion under these

circumstances a

Mr PATTERSON was not concerned about promotions as that was a question for the Public Service Board to deal with

Mr LANGRIDGE-You are backing down

on your own memo

Mr PATH leSON-The Crown Low officers stated that the Public Service Board had a right to nominate Mr Dawson for the position, and he did not wait to take up a position of hostility to the board Nobody would be injured by the arrangement that

had been matter

Mr LANGRIDGE Oh yes There is a vacancy and you bring a man from outside the dep street to fill it

Mr MUNRO said that when the amendment was made in the Public Service Act last year it was distinctly understood that if there was an officer in a department qualified for a vacancy he should get it in preference to anyone else

Mr MOUNTAIN pointed out that Mr Dawson did not leave the Customs of his own accord but was removed from it on the understanding that the change would not affect his promotion in the Customs It was a well recognised fact that Mr Dawson was on excellent officer

Sir BRYAN O LOGHLrN wished to mon tion that Burns years ago in connection with the great commercial frauds that took place here, when he was prosecuting. on behalf of the Crown one of the best officers on that occasion was Mr Dawson and a great deal of the practical success of these prosecutions

was due to him

Mr GRAVE S said Mr Dawson was appointed to take charge of the stores branch department without being consulted there was no better officer in the service than Mr Dawson

Mr LANGRIDGE would like to explain that Mr Dawson got promotion in his removal, and went, back to the Customs did not improve his position, while it burned others promotion

The item was agreed to.

On the item Ports and Harbours and Immigration £10 28

Sir BRYAN O'LOGHLEN suggested that harbour trusts should be established for the management of other ports and harbours than that of Melbourne.

Mr P IT ELLISON was sure that as a matter of policy the Government would be glad to have the ports and harbours main ged by harbour trusts if they would carry on the the work with the fees derived from those ports There was a loss in connexion with all these h arbours

Mr B .KLle asked that some consideration should be given to lighthouse keepers with families in removing them from place to place so that their children might not be prevented from attending school

Mr PATTERSON said the occupation of a lighthouse keeper was of an isolated character and that they were removed by rotation He would take into consideration any case of hardship that the hon. member might mention

Mr. W. T. CARTER wanted to know when the Minister was going to carry out his promise in connection with enlarging the dock

at Williamstown.

Mr PAT PERSON said it was found that the dock was capable of accommodating the largest ships afloat.

Mr W. T. CARTER said a plan was submitted to the Minister, not merely for enlarging the dock to accommodate large ships, but practically for making two docks. He would ask the Commissioner of Customs whether he would devise some plan to put into dock to Borne effective use. He was informed that ship-owners could get their vessels docked in Sydney at half the price

was correct they could in Victoria.

Mr. ZOX asked the Commissioner of Customs to say whether the statement of the hon. member for Williamstown that vessels could be docked for half the price at Sydney, and, if so, to offer some explanation,

Mr. PAT PERSON said that although the dock had cost a large sum it was an admirable adjunct to the port, and, while it did not pay, it could not be dispensed with. There was, he believed, some difference as between the charges in Sydney and here, but not so great as had been stated.

Mr W. T. CAUTER.-I am informed the difference is 50 per cent

Mr. PAT TERSON would inquire into the matter, and on a subsequent occasion bring down a statement as to the comparative charges,

Mr. MOUNTAIN said that where formerly ships drawing not more than life came up the river, they were at present coming up drawing 22ft, and that, of course, was a detriment to the dock at Williamstown. Ship owners would not dock at Williamstown when they could be accommodated up the river; and there was going to be increated docking accommodation nearer the city.

Mr. W T. CARTER asked the Commissioner of Customs to take into consideration the case of a waterman at the dock who was employed 12 hours a day week days and Sundays, and debarred performing his tell

gions duties There was another case, that of A man named Rogers, who was taken from the Railway department some years ago, and not on as engine driver in one of the Customs departments and who ever since had felt himself suffering under an in

justice

The item was agreed to

'The item, Mercantile marine offices, £1 400 was agreed to

On the item " Distilleries and excise,

11th '

Mr GRAHAM drew attention to the large 3u ratio of sugar used instead of barley in

Distilleries and also used by brewers instead of hops Something ought to be done to prevent this, or the people ought to be told what they were drinking Much injury was due to farmers and the hop industry

was being killed

Mr TI RbUSON said something out to be done to abate the nuisance, as he would call it. He had charge of a petition from the hop growers of Bnuht, urging that the use of augur m distilling and brewing should be stopped, in 1 n formed the House that amongst the sign nature.. was that of a brewer who only use 1 hops.

Mr BAKER said that a much more serious matter was the use of sugar instead of barley in the manufacture of beer 11s farmers lost half a million sterling a year from this

cause

Mr M'LEAN remarked that a brewer should beat Mean) to use any ingredients so long as they were not deleterious to health, but he should be compelled to label his barrels with the ingredients used in the composition of the beer The brewers could then use what they liked, but the public could please themselves whether they bought the bier It it was possible to give any encouragement to the hop industry that ought certainly to be done

Mr ZO\. agreed with much that had been said by previous speakers, and believed that the brewers of Melbourne would not object to the proposal of the hon. member for the Ovens provided that the law was made to

apply gem rail)

Mr PATTERSON said he had obtained a report which seemed to show that the abuse was not so great as hon members seemed to think it was too long to read now, but he would hand it to the press for publication.

The item was agreed to.

The item, " Powder magazines, and dynamite hulk, £3 OSS, was agreed to

On the item, Fisheries, £3,120,"

Mr J HARRIS asked what was being done in regard to the vote of £2 000 to encourage deep sea fishing

Mr PATTERSON said that several in-quince had been made by private individuals, but the bonuses offered did not seem large enough to induce them to engage in the

enterprise

The item was agreed to.

On the item, ' Marine Board, £1,910,

Mr HALL asked the Commissioner of Customs for an assurance that something would be done to prevent the stoppage of navigation on the Goulburn River by the bridge to be erected at Nagambie

Mr PATTERSON said it would be better to refer to the matter when the votes of the Public Works department were under consideration

the item was agreed to

'the item, "Miscellaneous, £2,003, was

agreed to

Progress was reported

ADJOURNMENT.

The House at 10 minutes to 11 o'clock adjourned till Tuesday next