Mercury (Hobart, Tas. : 1860 - 1954), Friday 3 August 1917, page 7


THE DICKER CASE

ACTION OF THE HOUSE OF

ASSEMBLY.

MR. DICKER ON HIS CASE.

A HEATED DISCUSSION.

In the House of Assembly yesterday the Premier (Hon. W. H. Lee), pursuant to notice given, moved: -

"That this House deplores that, at a time, when the people of Australia have pledged themselves to render to the British Empire, their utmost aid in this world-wide ' mu-, one of its members (Mr. D. E. Dicker) ""niel have used the following words: "I would as soon be under the German rule as under am British, and if Australia were in trouble Britain would not fire a "vote to help here which have been found by the courts of the State to be prejudicial to recruiting, and, in the opinion of this House, the words 60 ( used are disloyal and a contravention

of the hon, member's oath of allegiance to His Majesty the King."

He said he extremely regretted that it I should have been necessary for man to I take such a step ; it wants. painful to him, ; but it was one dictated by a sense of the duty he owed to the House and the cora

disunity-. In introducing the motion he deshed to avoid all bitterness of feeling.

Mr. Dicker: oh, that will come.

The Premier: Then it will not come from me, as I deeply regret; the necessity for moving such a motion, dealing as it I does, with. an alien, member of this House. The circumstances were familiar to all. Mr. Dicker was charged before the Police Magistrate, and convicted, of having used the words mentioned in the motion, and that conviction was nohold, and Air. Dicker's appeal dismissed, by the Full Court. It was a case inflicts excited much public concern not only in Tasmania but throughout the Commonwealth. Whilst the Government was considering what should be its attitude, _" _ embers of the Parliamentary Public Works Committee, of which Mr. Dicker was a member, notified him (the Premier) that: they absolutely refused to be any longer associated with Air. Bicker, and that was easily understood when it was considered that at least, two of "the members of that committee had lost sons in. (fighting the enemy. As Mr. Dicker was a member of the committee, pointrated by the Labour party, he (the Premier) comm "dca ted vi'Mi Mr. Lyons. the Leader of the Opposition, and that party, in its attitude, did not seemed together free from reproach.

Mr. Lyons A Uli! (This is a political

gone

'Clio Premier: No political game at all. (Hear, hear.) He wrote to Mr. Lyons, through, the Treasurer, enclosing a copy of the letter received from the Public Works Committee, and "delight. Dicker was appointed a member of the committee on the nomination of the Opposition, and it appears that the executive has no power to deal with his case. As he has, I understand, intimated his intention to remain a member of the committee, it seems to me that you, as leader of the Opposition, should be no-" arises of the contents of the committee's letter in order that you ? may consider whether any action should be taken by you as such leader. Mr. Lyons replied that Mr. Dicker intended appealing against the conviction, and, therefore, he considered comment at present unjustfied: the fc at a later stage he would refer the matter to his party. The convict lion was upheld on appeal, oud ho lie (the Premier) wrote to Mr Lyons on April 18-in view of the fact that the appeal has not been upheld, and as the conviction stands!, I shall be pleased to know if you will bring this matter be-fen c your party as early as possible, and accusing me of what action and proposed to be taken" (That ment as to total

rating some other Labuan member to act on the Public Works Committee.) Mr. Lyons replied that it was not convenient to call his party together just then on account of the Federal election campaign, but he would do so later. Later he wrote that he was endeavouring to arrange a meeting. On June 5 Mr. Lyons writes-I find that the majority of" my party are opposed to meeting to specially total with the matter' adding that he would put the matter before them when Parliament met. He the Premier) replied that it was only fair that the party should have an opportunity of expressing its -views, and pressed for a decision On Wednesday last Afr. Lyons wrote: - "Referring to your correspondence on the question of the relations between Mr. Dicker and the Public Works Committee, I have to inform you that the members of, my party have considered the mat-tea, and "welcome to the conclusion that as Mr-. Dicker has emphatically denied the charge laid against him, there is no justification, for taking any action against him. I note what you say on the subject of disloyal utterances by Mr-. Dicker. I am unaware of any charge of disloyal utterances against Air. Dicker." That being the attitude of the opposition leader and his party, there was no other course open to him but to take the serious step he was now doing. Out of consideration for the hon. member he (the Premier), in order to give him an opportunity of making reparation as far as he could, saw All. Dicker personally on Wednesday, and asked him if he proposed to take the opportunity to be presented to him to apologize for the statements attributed to him, or to withdraw their, or qualify them in any way.

Mr. Lyons : How could he if he did not

make them?

Air. Dicker: I rise to a point of order. He only asked me to apologise or fully draw-, not to qualify.

The Premier: I may be voting as to the vere qualify." I asked hnntoapologive, withdraw. and make a satisfactory statement to the House, and he absolutely refused to do anything of the kind. The import of the motion was serious in its character, impugning the loyalty of a citizen of the State, a member of the House, and the honesty of the oath of allegiance and loyalty to the King he had taken when life became a member of the House. It was to be hoped that upon the motion being carried, which he: had every confidence it would be, Air. Dicker would see his way to take the step he should already Ina ve taken of resigning from the Public Works Committee.

Mr. Dicker: That H where the shoe pinches, isn't it?

The Premier: If the hon. member does not see lies partly to do to it will become my duty as Leader of the House to introduce a bill, which would have the effect upon being a all of removing Air. Dicker from the committee, and I will give the Opposition an opportunity of nominating another member to sit on the committee in Air. Dicker's place.

Mr. Becker: The chairman of that committee has to be given a job to keep him quiet.

Mr. M'ulcnliy The hon. member should withdraw that remark, and I would advise him to be more careful in future.

The Chairman called upon Mr. Becker to xvithd.TO.xv his remark, which he did.

Tho-P.xem'ior: I hope members opposite will realise the gravity of this matter, and keep themselves within bounds. (Hear, hear.) It is with a full sense of my responsibilities that I feel compelled to take this step to-day. What further the will have to be 'taken I am not in a position to say, as constitutional

entries will have to be consulted by the Government in all their bearings.

A Labour Member: All dictated by "The Mercury."

The Premier: I am dictated to only by a sense of my duty to this House in.

the country. (Hear, hear.) Here are sure 111 a life-and-death struggle with the Germans, and it is no light thing for a member of this House, elected by the

people and supposed to represent their views, to have been found guilty and convicted of having made statements prejudicial to recruiting, and give utterance to snell disloyal views. I am not going to tolerate such conduct inside or outside of this Chamber by a member of the House whilst I belong to it. -It is almost incredible that in parts, of Australia instances of such conduct have been 1 ghtly isassed over. J feel confident that the House will realise the gravity of the position, so as to let it go forth to Uto country and the brethren that we have no time for men who utter such sentiments, and Especially members of our Parliament, and that we will not tolerate the same by any member without giving expression hOur. protest in the very strongest terms.' If. the opinion of the House is not sufficient to lead the hon. member to resign from the Public Won Its Courtmallee, but persistently- flouts the Houses

and the committee, offer steps will have to be taken to vindicate his honour and that of the members of that committee, who decline to be any longer associated with him. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. Lyons (Leader of the Opposition) said they were asked to vindicate the honour of the House beauty" "The Mercury" said it had to be done. (ACnis-" teaial dissent.) He coituiiondotí the Premier for having first communist feel with him in the matter, but he was now seek-ing to make political capital out of the affair. _ &

Several Ministerialists : No, not

Mr. Lyons : "Test, by not only attacking Mr. Dicker, but by trying to cast the responsibility upon the whole of the Labour parry.

The Pto_jí_»¡ I only complain of the

refusal of your party to take any action in regard to the hon, member.

Mr. Lyons asserted that it was all a political move. The Premier had asked Mr. Dicker to apologise for having" used words that he had sworn he had never u fiercely.

Mr. Sadler: But he has been convicted of it, and the conviction on appeal has been upheld.

Ahr. Lyons said he was prepared to take the denial of Mr. Dicker before the words of those who had given evidence against him. One of the most disloyal sentiments he (Mr. Lyons had ever heard uttered was uttered by a member in that Chamber' last session, finely, that the control of Australia should for a time be handed over to the people of Ja. an.

Mr. Whitsitt : Whose sthtCTamt was if Mr. Lyons : The statement of the hon.

member.

Mr. Whitsitt (excitedly): My statement was that if the politicians of Australia were unable to control the I.W.W in New South Wales it was time that our Ally, Japan, came in to extinguish such ruffians and their demoniacal work. There men swore death and hell to the British Empire. And those are my sent!, mounts to-day.

Ahr. Lyons : His statement was that Japan should be called in, and no mention

was mode of the I.W.W.

Mr. Dicker : Less than ten minutes ago I heard the hon. member make the same statement as Mr. Lyons mentions.

The Speaker The hon. monibET says he never made the statement.

Mr. Ogden: I am prepared to swear he did.

The Speaker told Mr. Lyons that he must withdraw the charge of disloyal utterances against Mr. Whitsitt.

Mr. Lyons : God help Australia if it be contended that a coloured race should come in to control Australian affairs, and it is not considered disloyal to say so.

Mr. Whitsitt: Japan is our Ally. We don't want Germans to come to control Australia.

The Speaker : "hero is no comparison between the two statements.

Mr. Lyons said the whole matter had already been dealt with by the courts of law, and Mr. Dicker had never been

charged in any courtmartial disloyal utterances, upon which it was sought to wreck the man's reputation and cancer for the rest of his life. God forbid that German rule and Prussian militarism should ever

appear in Australia-(cheers)-and that was the real view of Mr. Dicker, being like the rest of us, full of zeal for Australia remaining a free country with, free

institutions.

Air. Bicker: Hear, hear.

Mr. Lyons said who differed on political questions, but all desired to maintain the constitutional liberties of the people, and Ala Bicker, and anybody else in his senses, held that view, he felt sure that there was a misunder standing as to the words Air. Dicker really used. ', They heard that member deliver a most interesting speech, in the House last session on the military position in Europe, and he was complimented by the Treasurer and others upon it, and it stamped him as, one anxious for the success of the Allies in the great struggle. A witness who was with Air. DicKer at the time had corroborated him in saying that the charge made against him was not true, and us further proof of his v actus there was the fact that he had helped to organise recruiting meetings, and in mapping out a. programme of such meetings in his district. He (Mr. Lyon;,) was not satisfied to take the evidence of those who

were called against the hon. member, but preferred to take Air. Dicker v assurance that he had been wrongly and unjustly "taxed. At times- they might, regina Mr. Dicker as extreme in his political views, but he balancer known him to go back upon his word, and the party had absolute confidence in him as far is his honesty and truthfulness were concerned. Other hon, members were liable

to have camped up charges made against them on the' existence of people who were merely posing in the country largely for advertisement Lot the House The careful that it did not do anything it might be early for in years to come. Mr. Dicker had assured him personally, on his honour, and he would? tell the House so, that he did not mean what had been imputed to him, and that he was loyal, and not one of his colleagues believed him to be guilty of the charge laid against him. Actresses had great schemes for advertising themselves, sometimes by notifying the loss of valuable jewellery, and sometimes by falling into the water witch somebody conveniently handy to pull them out. Again he asserted that Air. Drover denied that he over said what was imputed against him, that his words had been misconstrued, but admitted having said that England had never yet been called upon to fire a shot for Australia, but she had for other parts of the Empire, which was historically true. The party had confidence in him, and admired the way in which he had worked himself up from the lowest rung of the ladder, and how he had displayed marked ability in rela-tion to public affairs. Therefore he ap-pealed to hon. members opposite to everlose their sense of fair play, and not take the opportunity because of numbers to do the man a wrong. He moved, as an amendment,

That whilst we deplore the fact that an hon. member of the House has been charged and found guilty of making statements that are calculated, to preju-since recruiting, and unhesitatingly condemn and deprecates the statements that were attributed to think, we are strongly of opinion that such statements were never given expression to by Air. Dicker, and, notwithstanding the fact that he was punished for the supposed offence, we are prepared to accept his sworn denial, and the evidence of the witness to whom he was reported to have made the remarks, before the evidence of the two unknown and nofcoriot-y-seeking individuals who laid the information. This House is of further of opinion that, a Court of British justice having already dealt with the case, it would be unfair, and contrary to the accepted tenets of law and justice, toany other self-appointed body to uttempt to persecute by inflicting addeddenial punishment.

Air. Dicker said he wanted to thank his friends for the advertisement they

had given him, and to publicly thank "The Mercury" for the extensive advertisements they had given him. He had looked upon the whole matter as a political move from " the start. The remarks of the Premier were certainly interesting when the Premier had said that people were talking strongly- He (Mr. Dicker) reminded him that people were talking strongly on the other directions. If there was reason to take action against him (Air. Dicker) because people were talking strongly, than he did not give much for the Premier's judgment. The Premier had told the House that he had asked him Mr. Dicker) if he would withdraw, apologise, or make a qualifying statement. He (Mr. Dicker) wished to give the latter portion of the remarks

an emphatic denial. When the Premier called him into his room he asked if he (Mr. Dicker) intended to make an apology, or withdraw the words which had been attributed to him. He told the Premier that he would not withdraw words which he had claimed he had never uttered, or repudiate anything that he had not done. He (the Premier) replied, "I am very sorry," and he (Mr.

Eckford replied that he was also very sorry that the Premier had thought fit to ask small a thing. He repeated that he was sorry that the Premier should have asked the question because he had sworn on oath that the statements attributed to him (Mr. Dicker) were untrue. The Premier had given him no opportunity to make arangement.

The Premier: I ""merely asked whether Mr! Dicker was going to make an apology, withdraw, or make a statement. This House was in session, and Mr. Dicker had a full and ample opportunity.

Air. Dicker said that when he came to the House thought there was a cauldron of boiling water waiting for him, according to a" reports. Had he (Mr. Dicker; thought that a statement was wanted he would have been pleased to have made it After seeing the articles, in "The Mercury" he thought it just as well in the circumstances to wait. He had waited. He was rather pleased with the action that the Premier had now taken, because he wanted to deal

with the wild statements made by the I

Liberal press and some of the Liberal politicians. He was sorry that man with whom he had been, associated so long should have soon fit to stoop so low as to deliberately misrepresent the charge that had been laid against him. He X'oyer thought they would have con-descended to listen to such things, and really thought they were above it. By their views and expressions some had deliberately misrepresented his case to the public, and had gone so far as to declare him to be disloyal. As a matter of fact, "The Mercury" had been re-Irked by the Police Magistrate for the statements he made. The Police Magistrate declared that that newspaper had prejudiced the case in the eyes of the public. It was the same old game of politicians the old political schemeeverything was good enough to flog an opponent with. Men who had claimed to be the champions of liberty was the first to descend to the gutter of misrepresentation and to hurl filthy abuse. It, should be their desire to be above that. When the Police Magistrate tried the case he had to draw attention to the deliberate misrepresentation that was going on Barely after the Police Magistrate had rebuked the press, others would have had the common decency to refrain from continuing on the cause lines. The true facts of the case, he (Mr. Dicker) claimed, had never been put before the public, and there was a great deal that was not known. He wanted to publicly thank the reporter of "The Mercury" who reported the case in the Police Court the first day. His report was accurate; It was the report of a man-a gentle-man- The second day's report well, it was the most gross and deliberate misrepresentation that could possibly be compiled by a reporter. He never read such an inaccurate report-and the public who read it would only be able to get the opposite view on the evidence that was intended. And the reports were done by two distinct reporters. He personally wished to thank the reporter of the first day's proceedings, but he could not thank the report of the second day's proceedings. Here were two types of men, both Englishmen, one of whom was the best of men, and the other the absolute lowest thing that crawled! ("Oh.") unfortunately we had too many people or Jus kind here. Some of the people who came out here from the Old Country thought they had a license to run Australia and Australian people, and they lost no opportunity of trying to do so on every possible occasion, as, for instance, the people who "ad *" sworn the information against him. It was a lucky thing for the friend who was with him (Mr. Dicker) at the time the words were supposed to have been uttered that the women did not hand-out his name, or there would have been two charges instead of one. His friend was the secretary of the anti-conscription campaign, and had they got his name he would have been charged for

a moral.

Mr. Sadler: Did he say something disloyal, loo?

Mr. Dicker said he did not say a word. (Laughter.) He was the kind of gentleman who generally monopolised a conversation. He (Mr. Dicker) wanted to point out that three out of four of the womenfolk who gave evidence he had never spoken to at all. He sat at the table carrying on an ordinary conversation, and the two women who swore the information interposed. He instinctively took a dislike to them. In future when he met people to whom he took an ininstinctive dislike be would leave them severely alone. It was a mistake in this instance to have had anything to do with them. The two women were strangers to him. One of them was dressed very attractively, with all the latest finery. He got the ''glad eye," and she exposed a fine limb, and wore a new big list, (Laughter.) She played her part well. His friend locked at him (Air. Dickens, and they both chuckled. They took no further notice of the women until they began to abuse lustrelinn people. He heard the same old story at, to how little Australia had done for England, and as to how much England hat! down for Australia, as well as in part that England was playing in tate wear. Their conversation was a general betterment of Australia and Australian people. After a little while he (Mr. Dicker said to his friend, "it is a peculiar thing xx ill these people who come out here who say "how- little Australia has done for England and how much England has done for Australia that they fail to realise what Australia, has done for- England." He then went on to enumerate the wars in which Australia had lent a hand, and said, Yet these people came out here and belittled (the part that Australia had played." (Hear, hear.) As an Australian, who resented what had been said. No other country had stone what Australia had to help the Mother Country, and he very naturally resented the

deprecatory ' statements of (imported, people who had no love for us. 'the sooner these people kept out of Australia, the better for Australia. had the better it would be for the Bin pire.

Mr. Whitsitt: What, British people?

Air. Dicker: Yes, of the type of these women. Continuing, she said that they were the greatest enemies we could have. "n enemy without was not so had as an enemy within. The Australian woman was doing her duty in all parts of the Empire, while the women who had sworn the charge against him still stuck to the stage instead of giving their services on behalf of the war. He pointed out that while Australia was pouring out blood and treasure, England had not been called on to fire a shot for Australia. Every other part of the Empire had to be taken by conquest; but. happily, war had never been waged for Australia. He could quite understand people who had listened to the conversation misconstruing things of this kind. Bat a significant fact was that the women who were the information, swore the opposite in the witnessbox to what exists in the information. The

information alleged that he (Mr. Dicker said that England would not fire a shot in the defence, of Australia.

Mr. Sadler: England is filing shots in the defence of Australia every day.

Mr, Dicker said that was so, but Australia was doing her share of the firing. Under cross-examination, the w omen said that what had been said was, "Would England Uro A shot?" One half of the charge had been denied by the women who had the information, and the definite charge had been converted into a question. As to having stated that he had said that assistance would not fire a shot, he used no such words, and each denied having used them. His words were, England had not been called on to fire a shot, which was a totally different thing. It was an historic fact that England had not waged war to obtain possession of Australia. When the women went into court they be fired The whole of their residence, 1,0 far as that portion of the charge was concerned. In explaining the next phase of the matter-German rulehe realised that the Premier, in common with some of this ecHo. giles, had been forced into this action, and he realised that he was ashamed, of that action. Mr. Mulcahy: Who?

Mr. Dicker: Ton, for one. ("Ob.") You are ashamed of the political capital that has been made out of it. Continuing, he said that the people, according to the Premier, were talking strongly. "The Mercury" contained ellong utterances of what had taken place on political platforms, and members of 31,5 Government had to justify themselves in the House and try and saxe their faces. It was only 11 little while since the conscription campaign was before the people, and everybody knew the stand he took on that' question. If there was an antimilitarist in that Chamber, it was himself, and he did his best to combat the vile curses of militarists. ("Oh.") He left the Public Works Committee, as a member of which be received 25s. a day, and put his hand, in his pocket to carry on the campaign to prevent the military system pt Germany Tieing can ice! on in Australia, and nie ejig,íe""n that he would prefer Gorman >"ih_could not be reconciled with that fact. It was, therefore, absolutely false to say that he preferred German rule; if he did, he would have been an ardent conscriptionist. Once the German military system came to Australia, there would be very little facetious. He hew sufficient of the Dailyjury system to keep it out of AustraliaThere was no need for it. All that was wanted was to show the people what, was required. introduce equality of sacrifice.

Mr. Sadler: I believe they are going to do it.

Mr. Dicker said that he did not know to much need that. Million.! of money was going leaped out of the flesh and blood of the son who had left our stores. He believed that the public should know every item of news in connet tion within the war. The people had been kept in the dock, and false optimism had been created, which was not a wise thing, so far- as recruiting- was concerned in Australia. Had the truth then told to Australia, the army would have been bigger than it was to-day. The people should have the power of expressing the truth. In oonnection with the statement about his preferring to live under German rule, he denied that he ever made his statement,

and as much as he admired many things in German law, the only thing which justified the war was German hilarity.

Mr. Sadler : They are cultured barbarians. ,

Mr-. Dicker: Quite so. Every country that adopted militarism became cultured barbarian, unfortunately he had been forced into a system of defence. The British Army to-day was practically a volunteer army. There were very few con-script in it. The Conscription Act in England was very different from themesswo i>icpt>sed in Australia. He maintained lights the people participating in a conversation were better able to say what took place than those who might have overheard it, and also complained of "indecent haste" between the service of the information and the hearing of the case. Although he even- discussed the matter with his witness, the statements made by his witness and himself to his solicitor on the same day were identical. The Premier could see those statements if he wished.

Mr. Whitsitt: Did it ever come out in evidence?

Mr. Dicker : Yes.

Mr. W_ihsdtt¡ How was it you were convicted, then?

Air. Dicker: Do you. know a case in Australia where the man has got the benefit of the doubt.? He asked that the character of some of the witnesses against him was not too good. The whole thing seemed to have been engineered for political purposes on the eve of an election. Nothing had done more than his case to prejudice recruiting in Tasmania.. It was also an election dodge. If the Premier wanted further impartial eyeadvice as to whether he had done anything to prejudice recruiting, he could ask the military authorities to produce if they were men enough to do it-a letter mitten by a recruiting officer stating that he (Afcr. Dicker) was doing recruiting work in his own district at the time of the prosecution. A good deal of false sentiment had been associated with the prosecution. No sense of liberty and fair play had been shown. Members of that House had shown this false sentiment during the elections by using the names of their dead heroes in oonnection with his case. Mr. Mulcahy, and having a son, had dragged the name of his nephew into it. Mr Bean, by mentioning 'his dead son, had raised this filthy and false senti-ment for the purpose of making political capital, and it was a disgrace to him.

Mr. Hean: Where did I do it?

Mr. Dicker: In the library of this House, to The MCTcury"-reporterR, and before the whole of the Press reporters.

Air. Hear (speaking with some emotion I give it an emphatic denial. I never mentioned my son's death to him or anybody else.

Afr. Dicker was proceeding with his speech when the Speaker reminded him that the hon. member for Franklin had. denied that he made the statements, and his (Mr. Dicker) must accept the denial.

Mr. Dicker did so.

Mr. Payne also denied any recollection

de "wing mentioned Mr. Dicker's name during the election, and Mr. Hoggins declared that he had never mentioned Mr. Dicker's name upon his platform.

Air. Dicker, proceeding, said that when he went to address meetings he would got the best attendances, because he had been so well advertised that people would go to see what sort of an animal he was. They heard a lot about British justice. If they were to allow a second tribunal in this "case. they might its well get rid of all courts of justice, and reintroduce

the thumb screw, the rack, and other forms of torture. He was prepared to resign his seat to-morrow if the Government would give a guarantee to content the seat, and he would go to the people, and if he did not meet the same proportion of votes that his party got at the last elections he would never disgrace this Chamber by entering it again. That offer was open to any member for Franklin. But for him only to resign and give to the Liberals, in an election, the right to put him out would be, to rob the Labour people of "Choir proper representa-

tion.

Mr. Dicker was proceeding to refer to the Speaker, when a member of the Crewmerriment side intervened 'with the remark, Why bring Uro Speaker into "?

Mr. Dwkor: He represents Franklin, and also had a good deal to say in connection with my case.

The Speakort_prder! The lion, member has no right to bring the Speaker into it. You know the Speaker is not in a position to reply, and I caution you not to me my name.

">. Dicker: I am sorry. Anyhow,

you -

The Speaker: 1 call the hon. member to order, and I would do so again. if he persists in carrying on the debate in a way he has no night to do I shall name

him.

Mr. Dicker: I don't wish to carry on a debate in a way I have no right to do.

The Speaker: You have no right to mention my name in the discussion.

Mr. Dicker: Very good, Mr. Speaker. I will take on any member for Franklin.

The Premier: The hon. member knows that if under the terms of his offer one monitor so resigned on this side you would both be bound to come back. '

Mr. Dicker: No, I am going by the same proportion of votes I got three years, bro. If I don't get my quote then I will resign. He added that he hoped members would cease to use the word "disloyal," because he was as loyal as anybody, aco-ple were talking loudly about him, and wanted his blood, but the feast was not yet. "The Mercury'' was paying him particular attention, and he hoped it would continue to do so for the next couple of years. Members of the "house had attacked him behind his book, but he did not want to be bitter, and wasquite prepared to forgive them, because in for giving one rose superior.

"Mr Sheridan, asked for the Speaker's ruling or, to whether the Premier and the House must not accept Mr. Dicker's, denial, Hint being ¡Pai-liainoiittiry pinetree and procedure.

The Speaker said he had anticipated "me objection, and had looked into it. Whilst it was well established that an hon. member on the floor of the House must accept the denial of another, he -was of opinion that the wife did not apply in the present instance, as the member for Franklin (Mr. Dicker) was. taking the house, as a legislative body, and not as an individual member, to actors his htiitciueiit, which he also made before a claim" constituted court of' law, and, despite which statements made on oath, he was found guilty of having used the words with which he was charged.

Mr. Sliendmi next raised the question whether the Premier was in order in

moving a motion construing the charge of prejudicing l-eertiitir-g into one of dis-loyally.

The Speaker ruled that the Premier's motion was in order, especially in fact of the conviction recorded.

Air. Fullerton said it was one of the most serious matters that the House had been asked, to consider. The charge on which Mr. Dicker had been convicted amounted to disloyalty and a breach of his oath of allegiance. He had been found guilty by a properly constituted court of law. Before now innocent people had been convicted, but not frequently. The evidence was very strong against the member,

who said, in answer, that what he did say was- "Erglantl has not, up to the present time, been called upon to fire a shot in defence' of Australia." He (Mr. Fullerton) could not see any serious distinction between that and what he was charged with,. inasmuch as every shot drill by the British Navy in this war included firing in defence of Australia. (Hear, hear.) Would ' Australia he free to-day, if England and her navy had not fired many shots in her defence? So on his own showing Mr. Dicker's statement was not, at any rate, a loyal statement. There was also evidence corroborated by independent! xviilosses that he also said I would just as soon live under German rule us under British rule. Mr. Fullerton reviewed the opinion of the Full Court on the appeal, and said be regretted that he was found to the conclusion that Mr. Dicker did utter the words complained

of.

Mr. Whitsitt said he regretted Mr. Dicker had not seen his way to have retired gracefully from the House until the next general election.

Mr. Dickor:'-I have made an offer.

Mr. "Whitsitt: Yes. but that would be no test. Mr. Dicker bad impugned the good name of ladies, who had no opportunity of replying be should make them outside, where he could be nice to prove them. He did not take exception to a man who had not the pluck to fight, but he did no public men going about saying that there were already settlement men at the front to put down Prussian militarism l-Mxx-erdùig, Mr. Whitsitt said that her bad be."!! maligned by the Lord or of the Opposition for the statement last session that Australia ought to be governed by their Ally (Japan) for a while, and repeated that sitting with the W W. and others who appealed to the lower element of mankind-as the Leader of the Opposi-tion did occasionally- they wanted a new Governement to force their 0110111.«=. Mr. Whitsitt then read copies, s extracts from both "The Mercury" and "Daily Post" of his speech in the House referred to by the Leader of the Opposition, The bed the greatest respect for Mr. Lyons's duty and her mother, but li? could state publicly what he thought of Mr. Lyons for accusing him (Mr. Whitelate) of disloyalty.

Mr. Lyons appealed to the Speaker to know if Mr. Whitsitt was entitled to address the Howe in such a contemptible way. Should he be allowed to sink so low as to bring a united.! wife into thediscussion? Mr. Whitsitt ought to be above that. They were dirty, contemptable tactics, and he (Mr. Lyons) asked to be protected from such dirty, con-temptible ladies' in the future.

Mr. Whitsitt said that if he had said anything derogatory about Mr'. Lyons's wife or his- mother he would apologise a thousand times.

Mr. Lyons: I do not want your apology. The Speaker said that personal matters might well be left on, altogether. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. Whitsitt, raising his voice to a high pitch, said he would deal with Mr. Lyons politically. He had accused him of disloyalty,

Several Members-: No.

Mr. Whitsitt said that there was no greater strain on a man's character than (ki be disloyal, and it there was one thing he prided himself on it was 1rs loyalty. When he was dead and gone un epitaph would be erected over his body, "Here is the body of an honest man," not "Here lies 0110 soil over another." The

Speaker: You must withdraw that. Mr Whitsitt said he was not necessarily

referring to Mr. Lyons. Laughter )

Mr. Lyons: I think it a waste of time calling him to cover, Mr. Speaker. Do not bother about him. (Laughter.) His Epitaph will be erected in, a lunatic

asylum.

Air. Whitsitt said he certainly resent-ed being called a disloyal citizen. Had he been in the position of Mt. Dicker he would have resigned, and he should have resigned knowing the position in which the members were in who had suffered bereavements. He should leave 10signed had had any respect for them.

Mr. Sheridan: Mr. Dicker? absolutely denies kilo charge.

Mr-. Cotton said that Mr., Dicker had complained that ].o_ti<_l capital had been made out of his case during the elections. give (Mr. Cotton) had travelled through the 'Hints during the elections, and had not "said a word by the candidates about Mr. Dicken:. (Opposition dissent.) It had low-level', been incontestably proved that Mr. Dicker had made use of certain words, and those remarks could only be regarded as disloyal.

v Mr. Lyons: The case was before two courts, and the second time the question of evidence was not dealt with. You are not familiar with what the second court did.

Ma'. Mulcahy "said he had been drawn into the discussion much against his will, but as chairman of the Public Works Committee it was his duty -bp explain what had taken place when Mr.

ackers case was before the court. He (Mr. Mulcahy) resented the imputation that there had been a desire to make political capital out of the case. If the Leader of the Opposition had been sitting in the Premier's place with the knowledge that some member of the House had been tried for using language of the character charged against Mr. Dicker, which could only be construed as disloyal-if he had that knowledge to go

upon could he sit down and "so no action at all? What would be people say to such munity?

Mr Ogden: It was you who drew attention to it first.

Mr. Mulcahy said that the attention of the people had been drawn to it all over Tasmania before it came before the Public Works Committee. Personally he did not Think Mr. Dicker appreciated the nature of the oath of allegiance which he said. He did not seem to always understood it.

Mt. Dicken Do you?

Mr. Mulcahy paid that Mr. Dicker should know that there was only one flag, and one flag only, which he could owe allegiance to.

Mr. Dicker: I never flap the flag,

Mr. Mulcahy said neither did he. There was only one sale in this war. The House had to vindicate the honour of Parliament, and, if necessary, purge the "case of any member who had done that which he was, not entitled' to do under his oath of allegiance. Mr. Mulcahy then referred to the events which led to the suspension of the sittings of the Public Works Committee, of which Mr. Dicker iMd been a member. He stated that immediately Mr. Dicker's conviction had been made known the committee had a duty to per-form ; there was no other course open to the members of the committee, but to report the circumstances to the Executive Mr. Dicker had showed a want of generosity remain a member of the committee, Mr. "lovandee- Hem, and it was ungenerous of Mr. Dictator to say that there was anything unworthy in any action of the committee.. There was only one course which a member in Mr. Dicker's position should take.

Mr. Dicker: You "caucussed" The whole question, and talked the members into submission the other night.

Mr-. Mulcahy: You speak to know all about it. There were 19 members of the Hoikp at the meeting, and there was absolute unanimity all through, it: had been suggested that there was a constitutional difficulty in this matter which would prevent Parliament taking action in the way which it might otherwise do. It a British Parliament could not do that which it desired to do in a matter of this kind, when it Si as time that the Constitution was amended, so us to give Huge,, power to meet the situation, (Ministerial applause)

Mr. Ogden said he did not think any member of the Labour party could be enlarged with disloyalty. For his own part, he was within the Empire "cart unit soul. (Hear, hear'.) He believed in the British Empire, and believed the Empire has-, worth fighting for.

Mr. Dicker: hear, hear.

Mr. Ogden soil that they were, however, breaking through one of the greatest of British traditions by attempting to Larose a penalty in addition to one already imposed by a British Omtrl of Justhe. (Opposition: Hear, hear'.) He (Mr. Ogden) did his resume of electioneering recently, and he found that from almost every platform in the State political capital had been made out of the incident concerning Mr. Dicker. Could anyone attempt to deny it? The Rev. Father T Donnell, the toss and champion of the Liberal organisation, had said at one of the meetings to the electors, "li you vote for Mr. O'Malley you will be voting for the Dickens, Hookers, and Heltons !" (Laughter.) Mr. Ogden then Lyons on to refer to the late Mr. Howroyd, and expressed regret that he had to do so.

Mr. Fullerton! Stick to those who can defend themselves

Mr. Ogden said that, he also wished to refer to statements made by Mr. FullerInn; but. It was more important, perhaps, to deal with the question of a dual trial.

When a case was concluded in a court, whether a man was proved guilty or innocent, that was the last of the case, and no other court could deal with the perMin charged. Even assuming that. Mr. Dicker was guilty and he (Mr. Ogden) honestly believed he had not uttered the words, Examine he was a man with common sense, and a man who would at her His words would either be a fool or a nindiiian-the House was endeavouring to retry a case which had been heard by one of our pre-eminent: courts of justice. He (Mr. Ogden) asked members to take into consideration the fact that the court which heard the case was not infallible.

Mr. Fullerton: Then, why did you not appeal in the facts?

i Mr. Ogden: Mr. Fullarton thinks of everything that will allow him to reflect on his profession. (Laughter.)

Mr. Fullerton: According to the newspapers, the change was said to be as good as a charge of treason.

Mr. Ogden : Why was he not charged with treason? Proceeding, he said that a person who had been found guilty of disloyalty should be dealt with very severely, and no one with the slightest suspicion of disloyalty should be in a position of trust or responsibility. (Hear, hear.) In the present instance they were attempting to persecute a member after he had already been dealt with by a court of justice. Why, the Prime Minister had actually passed an Enabling Bill to allow two Out mans to keep their seats in the Commonwealth Parliament. One was a Mr. Hoitiii.inn. He (Mr, Ogden) believed that that this was a political move pure and simple.

Mr. Cotton: No you don't.

Mr. Ogden said he had soon articles in "The Mercury" almost daily which wore a disgrace. Only that day they had practically told the Government that they (the Government) must take action, and. in another article, said that the Government had nock a big majority that it was really more dangerous than a small one. Therefore, if the Government did take some action certain (Uro consequences would follow! (Laughter.)

The Premier: That does not trouble me very much.

Mr. Ogden said he thought it did. The article.-, accorded to say that there would be charges on the Ministerial side of the

House.

The Premier: Perhaps you will be here. (Laughter.)

Mr. Ogden said that the real enemy with in out- gates were the people who were conducting a campaign of exploita-tion by taking pounds and pounds out of the pockets of the people; firms and corporations, who were digging their hands deep down into the pockets of the wage earners. he wished to appeal to the i ca-seen of members, and to take, into coil;

sideration the fact That Comrade" Dicker had been with them for a sumber of years, and to ask themselves calmly whether his statement should not be backed up. He (Mr. Ogden had known Mr. Dicker for a number of years, and he believed him to be a man who would not utter the words attributed to him. Was it possible that members would accept the word of two travelling theatrical artistes before the word of a man they knew? He (Mr. Ogden) knew the individual who had persuaded the two girls to give information, and he would not place much reliance in him. (Laughter.) He did not want to say anything bad about him, nor could he say anything good of him; but there were reasons to influence the person in question to have a sly dig; at Mr. Dicker.

Mr. Dicker: Good reasons for it.

Mr. Ogden concluded by appealing to members to refrain from trying a man twice for the same offence.

Mr. Payne said he did not agree with the members on the Opposition side, who had said the motion meant retrying Mr. Dicker; he had been tried and found guilty, though the use of disloyal butterprices was not included in the offences such as felony, mentioned in the Constitution, for 'which a member lost his sent.

Mr. Shoobridge moved the adjournment of the debate till Tuesday, which was agreed to. a